{ "id": "p16022coll97:103", "object": "https://cdm16022.contentdm.oclc.org/utils/getthumbnail/collection/p16022coll97/id/103", "set_spec": "p16022coll97", "collection_name": "Tretter Transgender Oral History Project", "collection_name_s": "Tretter Transgender Oral History Project", "collection_description": "
The Tretter Transgender Oral History Project (TTOHP) collects, preserves, and makes accessible oral histories of gender transgression, especially as theyintersect with race, age, sexuality, citizenship, class, and ability. The project seeks to document the power and vision of trans movements for justice through the stories of activists working to imagine another world.
\n\nThe first phase of the Tretter Transgender Oral History Project was led by poet and activist Andrea Jenkins—who became the first Black transgender woman to serve in office in the US after she was elected, in 2017, to the Minneapolis City Council. This phase of the project sought to document the life stories and experiences of transgender and gender non-conforming people, with a focus on people living in the upper Midwest as well as those often excluded from the historical record, including trans people of color and trans elders.
\n\nThe second phase of the Tretter Transgender Oral History Project is led by trans studies scholar Myrl Beam. This phase of work seeks to document histories of trans activist movements and politics in the US, and is grounded in the belief that trans movements for justice are about more than rights: they are about survival, and about creating a new, more fabulous, more livable, and more expansive world––one not structured by racialized gender norms. The oral histories collected during this phase document the transformative power of trans movements, and the stories of trans activists who are building them.
\n\nFor more about the project, visit: https://www.lib.umn.edu/tretter/transgender-oral-history-project.
", "title": "Interview with K. Davis Senseman", "title_s": "Interview with K. Davis Senseman", "title_t": "Interview with K. Davis Senseman", "title_search": "Interview with K. Davis Senseman", "title_sort": "interviewwithkdavissenseman", "description": "K. Davis Senseman is a white gender-queer person from Pittsburgh who uses all pronouns. At the time of this interview, Senseman was working as a lawyer based out of Northeast Minneapolis. In this oral history, Senseman speaks at length about language and identity, being a parent, intersectionality, and their familial relationships. She also touches upon organizations she has been a part of, as well as the Women's March. Lastly, he touches upon the importance of centering trans women of color within movements.", "date_created": [ "2017-01-10" ], "date_created_ss": [ "2017-01-10" ], "date_created_sort": "2017", "creator": [ "Senseman, K. Davis" ], "creator_ss": [ "Senseman, K. Davis" ], "creator_sort": "sensemankdavis", "contributor": [ "Jenkins, Andrea (Interviewer)" ], "contributor_ss": [ "Jenkins, Andrea (Interviewer)" ], "notes": "Forms part of the Tretter Transgender Oral History Project, Phase 1.", "types": [ "Moving Image" ], "format": [ "Oral histories | http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300202595" ], "format_name": [ "Oral histories" ], "dimensions": "1:05:00", "subject": [ "Parenthood", "East Coast (United States)", "Spirituality, Spiritual Life, Religion", "Work", "Family Relationships", "Activism, Social Movements", "Race", "Education", "White", "Midwest (United States)", "Racism", "Wealth, Income, and Class", "Coming Out", "Tretter Transgender Oral History Project Phase 1" ], "subject_ss": [ "Parenthood", "East Coast (United States)", "Spirituality, Spiritual Life, Religion", "Work", "Family Relationships", "Activism, Social Movements", "Race", "Education", "White", "Midwest (United States)", "Racism", "Wealth, Income, and Class", "Coming Out", "Tretter Transgender Oral History Project Phase 1" ], "language": [ "English" ], "city": [ "Minneapolis" ], "state": [ "Minnesota" ], "country": [ "United States" ], "continent": [ "North America" ], "geonames": [ "http://sws.geonames.org/5037657/" ], "parent_collection": "Tretter Transgender Oral History Project", "parent_collection_name": "Tretter Transgender Oral History Project", "contributing_organization": "University of Minnesota Libraries, Jean-Nickolaus Tretter Collection in Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Studies.", "contributing_organization_name": "University of Minnesota Libraries, Jean-Nickolaus Tretter Collection in Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Studies.", "contributing_organization_name_s": "University of Minnesota Libraries, Jean-Nickolaus Tretter Collection in Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Studies.", "contact_information": "University of Minnesota Libraries, Jean-Nickolaus Tretter Collection in Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Studies. 111 Elmer L. Andersen Library, 222 - 21st Avenue South, Minneapolis, MN 55455; https://www.lib.umn.edu/tretter", "fiscal_sponsor": "This project is funded through the generous support of The TAWANI Foundation, Headwaters Foundation and many individual donors.", "local_identifier": [ "tretter414_tohp151" ], "dls_identifier": [ "tretter414_tohp151" ], "rights_statement_uri": "http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-EDU/1.0/", "kaltura_audio": "1_rqjvx8es", "kaltura_video": "1_c9ir3fs1", "kaltura_combo_playlist": "0_3gb185d3", "page_count": 0, "record_type": "primary", "first_viewer_type": "kaltura_combo_playlist", "viewer_type": "kaltura_combo_playlist", "attachment": "147.pdf", "attachment_format": "pdf", "document_type": "item", "featured_collection_order": 999, "date_added": "2018-09-24T00:00:00Z", "date_added_sort": "2018-09-24T00:00:00Z", "date_modified": "2020-05-22T00:00:00Z", "transcription": "K. Davis Senseman\nNarrator\nAndrea Jenkins\nInterviewer\nThe Transgender Oral History Project\nTretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nJanuary 10, 2017\nThe Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story,\nwhile providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source\nmaterial about the transgender community. The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the\nUniversity of Minnesota. The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for\ncurrent and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public.\nThe Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300\nindividuals over the next three years. Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and\nexperiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality. This project will be led by\nAndrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist. Andrea brings years of experience working in\ngovernment, non-profits and LGBT organizations. If you are interested in being involved in this exciting\nproject, please contact Andrea.\nAndrea Jenkins\njenki120@umn.edu\n(612) 625-4379\nK. Davis Senseman 3\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\n1 Andrea Jenkins -AJ\n2 K. Davis Senseman -KDS\n3\n4 AJ: So, hello.\n5 KDS: Hello.\n6 AJ: My name is Andrea Jenkins and I am the oral historian for the Transgender Oral History Project\n7 at the University of Minnesota Tretter Collection. Today is January 10, 2017. I am in downtown\n8 Minneapolis, on a very snowy day, at COCO – the co-working facility that’s located in the historic\n9 grain exchange building. I’m here today with K. Davis Senseman.\n10 KDS: Yes.\n11 AJ: How are you doing today, Davis?\n12 KDS: I’m good, I’m good.\n13 AJ: Yeah. So, if you can state your name, how it’s pronounced – I think I got it right.\n14 KDS: Yes, you got it right.\n15 AJ: Spell it so that we make sure that we have all the spelling correct. State your gender identity\n16 today, as you claim it and describe it; state your gender identity as it was assigned at birth; and\n17 then what pronouns you use.\n18 KDS: All right. So, K. Davis Senseman is correct. K-period, D-a-v-i-s S-e-n-s-e-m-a-n, so just like it\n19 sounds. My gender identity today, I would say, is gender queer, gender non-conforming. My\n20 gender assigned at birth was female and what was the last question?\n21 AJ: Pronouns?\n22 KDS: Oh, my pronouns. So, my pronouns are pretty . . . I have different groups of people that use\n23 different pronouns for me. So, I’ve got family, I’ve got friends, and I’ve got clients. I started off\n24 my career in a very . . . I’m an attorney and the legal field is pretty binary. So, all of those clients\n25 mostly use female pronouns, sometimes they use my name at birth. I have a large . . .\n26 AJ: Because that’s how you . . .?\n27 KDS: That was how I started out . . .\n28 AJ: When you first hung out your shingle.\n29 KDS: Exactly.\n30 AJ: How long ago was that?\n31 KDS: I graduated from law school in 2003. I worked at a firm from 2003-2010 and then I’ve been on\n32 my own since 2010. So, it’s been a while.\n33 AJ: It’s been a pretty lengthy career.\nK. Davis Senseman 4\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\n1 KDS: Yeah.\n2 AJ: So, you were saying your clients use . . .\n3 KDS: Those clients use female pronouns mostly. A lot of people know me from then so a lot of folks\n4 will use female pronouns. My son, who is now 8, when he was . . . kind of began speaking until\n5 maybe he was 2 or 3, he would switch back and forth – male and female pronouns. And I have\n6 groups of friends, some in New York and some in LA, who I’ve spent time with who just default\n7 to male pronouns. I also have some friends here who say, at different times, confided to me,\n8 “You know, whenever I talk about you, I use male pronouns. Is that okay?” That’s totally fine\n9 with me.\n10 AJ: I do the same, I’m just going to confess right now.\n11 KDS: Yeah. A lot of people do. I recently have . . . I have a lot of friends . . . I feel like the current\n12 hostile political climate . . . the hostile political climate over the past few years has . . . I have a\n13 lot of friends that I feel very kind of . . . these are the closest people to what I’m like and many of\n14 them use gender neutral pronouns – they pronouns. I’ve realized recently that being a business\n15 owner and being an attorney, I do interviews a lot, I speak on things, I publish things. I’ve\n16 decided recently to just be very direct about sometimes telling a publication or telling someone,\n17 “I want you to use they pronouns here,” because I feel like it’s important that people realize . . .\n18 it makes totally sense and there is a huge swath of people in my life who use they pronouns for\n19 me. My now 8-year-old often says, “Maybe that’s the kind of pronoun that would work for\n20 you.” He’s been kind of trying to figure it out since he was born – where do you fit? He tells\n21 people, I go by Baba – that’s what he refers to me as, and the thing I really like is that he goes to\n22 school with a lot of Muslim kids and they really get Baba. They’re just like, “Oh, you’re a Baba,\n23 but you were born a girl but now you’re a Baba.” I’m like, “Yeah,” and they’re like, “OK, great.”\n24 So, Tommy tells people, “For me, Baba means kind of like a mom, kind of like a dad, but not\n25 really either.”\n26 AJ: That’s pretty fascinating.\n27 KDS: Yeah. He really talked about that a lot – until he was about six and then for a little bit he was\n28 like, “I’m tired of explaining to people what Babas are.” And then recently he’s really gotten\n29 back into, “I’m going to educate everybody.” And really now, he’s been at school so long that so\n30 many of the kids he knows will also say, “That’s not a mom, that’s a Baba.” “That’s not a dad,\n31 that’s a Baba.” For Tommy, Babas are part moms and part dads.\n32 AJ: Oh, wow. That is fascinating.\n33 KDS: So, I use all pronouns. I mean really, I tell people mostly like, “Whatever comes flying out of\n34 your mouth works for me.” I wake up some mornings and I feel like, “Yeah, I’m in solidarity with\n35 women because that’s how people read me sometimes.” And then I wake up other mornings\n36 and I’m like, “Oh, you know, I feel more . . .” It’s weird, it’s not a . . . and I think that’s what kept\n37 me for a long time from thinking, “Well, I’m not . . . I don’t have enough problem with my\n38 assigned gender to be able to claim any type of trans identity or . . . it felt like no, I don’t deal\n39 with enough. People generally . . . if they say she, in most cases it doesn’t bug me unless they’re\n40 . . . unless they’re saying she and using female pronouns out of a place of disrespect.\nK. Davis Senseman 5\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nAJ: And we 1 can tell, right?\n2 KDS: Right. And, you know, it’s weird. In my industry, women are still . . . I sometimes will tell clients,\n3 if they use female pronouns for me, I will say, “Don’t let that attorney, or that opposing counsel,\n4 know that I might be a woman or that I might be anything other than a man.” Because when\n5 they read my name, they’ll just assume I’m a man because we just assume everyone . . .\n6 AJ: Exactly . . . named Davis is male identified.\n7 KDS: Exactly. And in the legal field, there are not that many women.\n8 AJ: Right.\n9 KDS: And so, I often will say, “Nope, let’s just . . .” A lot of times in that industry women are just . . .\n10 it’s not a great industry for women.\n11 AJ: Wow, that is . . . thanks for that . . .\n12 KDS: It’s a long answer.\n13 AJ: It’s a long answer but it’s really important and really sort of highlights the nuance of just this\n14 whole new sort of gender revolution that’s going on and the ways that, certainly you – but I\n15 think maybe other people are thinking about as well. So, yeah – thank you. So, Davis, what’s\n16 the first thing you remember in life? What is your first memory?\n17 KDS: That’s a good question. It’s really interesting because I . . . so I had . . . my name, my birth name\n18 – my grandmother’s name is Katherine and my birth name is very similar to her name. She had\n19 asked my parents, I’m the youngest cousin – I’m an only child because it was very hard for my\n20 parents to have me, and she told my parents, “Do not name that child after me,” because she\n21 did not like her name. My grandma was pretty . . . she was pretty butch. Catherine was not\n22 really her name. She said, “Don’t name that baby after me,” so they named me a derivative of\n23 Katherine and she said, “I don’t like that name, I don’t like any of the names it shortens to, I’m\n24 not going to call this child that.” So, she never used my name.\n25 AJ: Is that right?\n26 KDS: She called me, “the baby,” until I was about 17. By that time, my friends had started using my\n27 last name, Davis was my father’s last name, started using that for me and she said, “That will\n28 work for me.” So, she never called me by my first name – ever.\n29 AJ: So, your grandma named you?\n30 KDS: Yeah, she named me basically. My name was, “the baby” for 16 years – 17 years. And then she\n31 said, “Well, Davis works – I’ll use that.”\n32 AJ: Wow.\n33 KDS: She was just like, “This is how it is, I don’t like that name, I don’t think you like that name, I don’t\n34 think that name goes with you, we’re not going to use it.” So, I remember as a kid we used to\n35 have a mirror at the top of our basement stairs. I grew up in Pittsburg and basements weren’t\n36 finished and the back of our basement was like a coal cellar where they used to put the coal in.\nK. Davis Senseman 6\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nSo, I was standing at the top of our basement stairs, we had a mirror, and that’s 1 where you hung\n2 your coats and I remember looking in that mirror, and I went to Catholic school as a kid so we\n3 had uniforms. They dressed me in dresses for . . .\n4 AJ: Well, you were at Catholic school, you need to wear a plaid skirt and white shirt.\n5 KDS: Plaid skirt, yes, and a white shirt and knee socks.\n6 AJ: We know the uniform, yeah.\n7 KDS: And so, they dressed me in dresses in nursery school, maybe that’s what I remember. By the\n8 time I was in kindergarten I was like, “I don’t need any of these except for school uniforms.”\n9 But, I remember looking in that mirror and thinking, “I don’t even believe there’s a me.” And in\n10 some ways . . . I remember I used to say that phrase a lot and think, “I don’t think this person\n11 that I see is really who I am.” I remember thinking that. I used to think that and think, “What if\n12 this is all just . . . what if someone is imagining this world that we live in and what if this is just\n13 like . . . like how do you know that you’re real?”\n14 AJ: Like a menagerie almost.\n15 KDS: Yeah. And, I used to think that all the time – like I don’t believe . . . and it probably wasn’t until I\n16 was away at college and cut my hair really short and really kind of came into my being, that I\n17 was like . . . that I could look into a mirror and really be like, “Oh, this is who I am.”\n18 AJ: There I am. Wow. So, your first memory wasn’t necessarily around gender . . .\n19 KDS: No.\n20 AJ: But, it was about, “I am not this person somehow.”\n21 KDS: Right. I am not this person, I am not this name, I’m not what they want me to be. I was the\n22 youngest, I was a girl, I was supposed to be . . . My other grandmother was like . . . all she\n23 wanted me to do was take dancing lessons and all these . . . because she had had only grandsons\n24 before that.\n25 AJ: OK, yeah – so she was ready for the frilly dresses and fur little jackets.\n26 KDS: And I just said, “I would rather die than go do that.” My father was very good about . . . because\n27 it was his mother, and he said, “Well, then, we won’t do that. You can play baseball, you can do\n28 what you want.”\n29 AJ: So, you grew up in Pittsburgh?\n30 KDS: Yes.\n31 AJ: I assume you went to school there.\n32 KDS: Yeah.\n33 AJ: What was family life like? I mean, you’ve described some of the sort of workings, but was it an\n34 intact family?\nK. Davis Senseman 7\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nKDS: Yes, my parents were together 1 until my father died.\n2 AJ: Oh, wow – sorry.\n3 KDS: My mother is . . . and Pittsburgh is . . . it’s a very blue-collar kind of working class – the entire city\n4 was growing up. So, my father was a . . . he had a job in a factory that his union went on strike\n5 one year, probably . . . I guess, a little before 1980, so I was like 3 or 4, and they never went back\n6 to work. They hired scabs and that was the end of it.\n7 AJ: Wow.\n8 KDS: So, then I had a friend from pre-school whose father worked for the City of Pittsburgh, he was\n9 an attorney, and he said, “You should work for the city.” And that’s kind of how things work in\n10 Pittsburgh – you know somebody and then you . . .\n11 AJ: Well that’s kind of how things work everywhere but . . .\n12 KDS: True. And he ended up getting a job as a laborer for the City and so he worked for them for the\n13 rest of my life.\n14 AJ: Wow . . . for the rest of his life.\n15 KDS: Well, the rest of his life – yes. And, my mom stayed home . . . she had worked and then she\n16 stayed home until I was about 8 and then she went back to work. My grandmother, we had a\n17 side-by-side duplex and my grandmother lived on the other side. My mom was . . . her father\n18 had died when she was 12, pretty traumatically. She had a twin sister and they have pretty\n19 persistent mental illness – kind of undiagnosed, untreated mental illness, because in the 1980s\n20 in Pittsburgh . . . people just were how they were.\n21 AJ: Yeah, didn’t go to therapy and all of that kind of stuff.\n22 KDS: Yup. So, she was pretty emotionally abusive and my father worked all the time, because when\n23 you work for the City, it snows and there’s overtime and you work the overtime because you\n24 make more money.\n25 AJ: Right, exactly.\n26 KDS: And so, I was lucky that my grandmother lived there because I spent a lot of time at her house. I\n27 was very close with my father.\n28 AJ: Was it your mom’s mom or your dad’s mom?\n29 KDS: It was my mom’s mom. And so, she would often tell me . . . she would be very upset. She\n30 would be like, “I’m sorry she’s like this.” And it was like well you . . . yeah, you made her but it’s\n31 not your fault. And so, I feel like probably my parents maybe may have been happier if they had\n32 split up but my father really . . . when he died, he told me it was my job to take care of her.\n33 They got married young.\n34 AJ: He was committed to making sure she was going to be OK.\nK. Davis Senseman 8\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nKDS: Yeah, that she was going to be OK. And he knew her by herself 1 would not be OK, my\n2 grandmother wouldn’t be OK. And so, when he died . . . he died when I was just out of law\n3 school. He kind of stayed alive long enough to see me graduate.\n4 AJ: Wow, what a moment.\n5 KDS: And he had been really sick when I was like 5. He got ulcerative colitis and he had almost all of\n6 his digestive system removed and had a colostomy. He was young, so he was in the hospital for\n7 the better part of a year when I was about five.\n8 AJ: And he still worked as a laborer all this life?\n9 KDS: He still worked – yeah, yeah. And built things at home and fixed everything – and taught me\n10 how to do a lot of that.\n11 AJ: Is that right?\n12 KDS: I feel like from a young age, he sort of realized, “You’re going to need to know this – there’s\n13 probably not going to be a traditional man in your life and you’re going to need . . .” So, he\n14 taught me everything he did and a lot of the folks that I know and that I’ve dated since then\n15 have said, “Oh, my dad never taught me anything.”\n16 AJ: Right.\n17 KDS: And I was like . . .\n18 AJ: That’s interesting, I interviewed someone yesterday who was just saying the same . . . but their\n19 dad, even though they were close, but their dad never really gave them those skills – like those\n20 sort of hands-on building, but their dad knew these things and that’s what their dad did. They\n21 would sort of be around and watching but didn’t make that sort of official transfer and your dad\n22 did.\n23 KDS: Yeah, he did. He just was like, “You’re going to . . .” And I think part of it also was he got so sick\n24 when I was young that I think he always worried about . . . it might happen to me again and you\n25 need to be able to get along, this other parent of yours is not going to do it. So, yeah – so he\n26 taught me kind of how to do a lot of stuff and he was very, very, very politically active, I think\n27 because he had gone on strike, he’d always been a part of a union.\n28 AJ: That’s a political activity, absolutely.\n29 KDS: Yes. And so, we would . . . from my youngest memories, it was going to spaghetti dinners for\n30 this county commissioner or . . .\n31 AJ: Fund raisers.\n32 KDS: Yes. And also, not . . . he was a big believer in boycotts and so we wouldn’t eat . . . I thought for\n33 a long time I didn’t like grapes, but he was like, “No, we just don’t eat grapes because of the\n34 conditions with migrant workers and because of . . .” And he was like, “No, we just won’t have\n35 them in our house. And Nabisco had been in Pittsburgh, they had a plant – and they shut down\nK. Davis Senseman 9\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\na plant, I remember, when I was like in middle school and he was like, 1 “We won’t have any\n2 Nabisco products.”\n3 AJ: So, no Cream of Wheat?\n4 KDS: No. no Oreos – no nothing. We had to buy the other . . . he was like, “Nope.”\n5 AJ: You had to buy Hydrox, huh?\n6 KDS: Exactly. He was like, “You will learn to love these.” But he was really adamant and really, really\n7 good about boycotts work and you’ve got to stick together and he used to always say, you\n8 know, “I had a net.” He always talked about, “I had a net when I didn’t have a job and there was\n9 something there to catch me. You could be so lucky as to never need the net, but you’ve got to\n10 make sure it’s still there for other people.”\n11 AJ: Wow, go dad.\n12 KDS: Yeah, and sometimes I’m like, “I’m so glad he’s not here because he would just be . . .” He\n13 would just be sick.\n14 AJ: Yeah, with the state of . . .\n15 KDS: Yeah.\n16 AJ: Speaking of this, and I really want to keep this personal but it’s just you’re bringing up all of\n17 these really brilliant sort of political things. I’m just looking at your shirt that you’re wearing\n18 today which is really political, “Listen to Black women.” That’s a pretty powerful statement for a\n19 gender fluid, gender queer – is that how you said you describe your identity?\n20 KDS: Yes.\n21 AJ: White identified . . .\n22 KDS: Yes.\n23 AJ: . . . sort of masculine identified in the perception of most people . . .\n24 KDS: Yes.\n25 AJ: . . . shirt for you to wear. What does that mean to you? Talk about it.\n26 KDS: Well, I talked about how my mom – her father passed away when she was 12, so my\n27 grandmother raised her, her and her twin sister, by herself. Their next-door neighbor was\n28 named, Aunt Annie, and kind of . . . she was a Black woman who lived in the west end of\n29 Pittsburgh. And Pittsburgh was not . . . Pittsburgh still isn’t a very well-integrated city.\n30 AJ: Right, it’s very segregated – yes.\n31 KDS: And they lived next door to each other and Aunt Annie was a single woman, and they kind of\n32 worked together to raise those kids.\n33 AJ: There’s a play and a movie right now that’s set in Pittsburgh called Fences that sort of . . .\nK. Davis Senseman 10\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nKDS: 1 Yes, August Wilson.\n2 AJ: . . . lays out that whole sort of . . . yeah.\n3 KDS: Yeah. It was my grandmother and Aunt Annie and they kind of raised these girls together. And\n4 so, a lot of the kind of wisdom and kind of the knowledge about life and living that my\n5 grandmother passed down to me was all from a Black woman.\n6 AJ: Influenced by Aunt Annie.\n7 KDS: Who taught her, “This is how you’re going to do it, this is how you’re going to raise these girls\n8 and this is how you’re going to . . .”\n9 AJ: Wow.\n10 KDS: And so, our family traditions are things that we . . . I’m always . . . you know, our superstitions.\n11 I’m always like, “Oh, the only people I know who have these are Black people.” And so, to me, I\n12 just feel like in the latest . . . I mean, if you look at the latest presidential election, Black woman\n13 are the only people who tried to save this country and say, “This is what needs to happen.”\n14 AJ: I’m so glad you said that, Davis. My heart just sort of wiggled and chills went up my spine\n15 because . . . I mean, the numbers show that . . .\n16 KDS: Numbers don’t lie.\n17 AJ: . . . Black women came out to support Hillary Clinton.\n18 KDS: Hillary Clinton, who hasn’t always been so great about race issues.\n19 AJ: Yeah, absolutely. But still, they stood up and actually, I believe that there was a lot of voter\n20 suppression that really . . .\n21 KDS: Oh, yes.\n22 AJ: . . . eliminated some of that support to make this presidency happen. And now I’m on tape\n23 saying that forever and the only reason why - because, believe me, I recognize where I am, but I\n24 believe that to be true.\n25 KDS: It’s 100% true. And you know, it just . . . I feel like the Black mothers of the movement have kind\n26 of . . . these are women who lost their children. I often say to my white friends, white moms,\n27 “What would you be doing if you knew that when you send your baby boy out the door, any\n28 encounter he may have may just be the end – that just might be the end.” That is a real reality\n29 and I just feel like to me, and also . . . I talk about this with my partner a lot and it’s something\n30 that she has now noticed and will always say, “Wow, you were right about that.” I often say\n31 Black women see me more than anyone in the world. I can be in a room sometimes with\n32 straight white man, or even gay white men, and I will literally be invisible because they’re like,\n33 “Ahh, I don’t know what to do with you.” But when I interact with a Black woman in like a\n34 transactional setting where I’m working with her or she’s . . . Black women see me because I feel\n35 like they’re like, “Oh, I see you, I know what you go through.” It’s like a . . . I often say I feel\nK. Davis Senseman 11\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nmore community, often times, when I am in a room of Black women or trans 1 women, then I do\n2 when I’m with a bunch of gay and lesbian-identified people because it’s like . . .\n3 AJ: Well, that is one of my questions. I usually save it toward the end of my conversation, but you\n4 brought it up organically. I do want to get back to family life but what do you think the\n5 connection is between the L, the G, the B, and then separately the T? Should this be one\n6 conjoined movement or do trans and gender non-conforming people need to sort of strike out\n7 on their own? What do you think about that?\n8 KDS: Yeah, I mean I think it’s the . . . I mean, it’s another case of Black women tried to save this\n9 country and trans people fought and did get rights for lesbian and gay people. There were trans\n10 folks . . .\n11 AJ: Trans women of color, let’s be real specific about this. Trans people, but trans women of color –\n12 I mean, Miss Major, Sylvia Rivera . . .\n13 KDS: Yes, they started this movement.\n14 AJ: Marsha P. Johnson, all of these women – yeah.\n15 KDS: It’s so interesting because the history got whitewashed and you know, then this most recent\n16 marriage movement, it was like trans people of color didn’t have a lot to gain from that. Getting\n17 married isn’t like . . . that was kind of the last hurdle for gay and lesbian people. “Now, I’m just\n18 the same. Now, I can settle in here and . . . “ I feel like . . . I mean, like when you look at the\n19 Employment Non-Discrimination Act when gay and lesbian people were willing to say like,\n20 “Yeah, we’ll leave off trans protections and yeah, we’ll . . .” I think it’s a matter of realizing that\n21 saying about, “They came for the trade unionists and I wasn’t a trade unionist.” I want the L’s\n22 and the G’s of the movement to realize that’s how it goes – when they’re coming, they’re\n23 coming for the most marginalized first.\n24 AJ: They came for the Jews; they came for the Blacks.\n25 KDS: And you don’t fit in there but then there’s going to be no one for you. I feel like it’s . . . you\n26 know what? I think it makes sense that trans people might say, “We’ve got to do our own thing\n27 because you all aren’t coming along.” What I want to see and what I hope to see, right now I\n28 serve on the board of PFund because I feel like they’re making it . . . we’re saying out loud, “We\n29 have elevated priorities and they are people of color and indigenous people; they are folks in\n30 North and South Dakota because, as part of our region, they are the most at risk; and they are\n31 trans and gender non-conforming people.” If you’re a white middle class gay or lesbian person,\n32 we’re not saying you don’t go through anything but we’re saying we’ve got a way longer place of\n33 lifting up.\n34 AJ: And when we lift up the most marginalized, everybody benefits.\n35 KDS: Everybody wins.\n36 AJ: Everybody wins. Tell me what PFund is. You told me it’s mission and priorities, but what is\n37 PFund?\nK. Davis Senseman 12\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nKDS: So, PFund is the midwest’s only LGBTQ community foundation. So, PFund exists 1 to help people\n2 kind of continue a legacy to take care of their community and then to create and invest in\n3 leaders across. So, PFund used to do scholarships and grants and now we’ve moved a lot of that\n4 together and we’re doing . . . the scholarships are now more individual grants because people\n5 may not be in a traditional path of education, but they need to be invested in and they’re still\n6 leaders and they’re still doing work, so we kind of opened it up. And, it’s so great because\n7 people are getting funds to help their organizations, they’re getting funds to go to a leadership\n8 training, they’re getting funds to help with a business idea that they have to start. These folks\n9 are gender non-conforming trans folks, people of color, Native people – for the most part, the\n10 vast majority. Because we, two years ago, said these are our elevated priorities, because we\n11 can’t . . . we don’t have enough money to fix everything.\n12 AJ: Yeah, but you can start the conversations and start dialogues.\n13 KDS: And it’s been nice . . . we’ve had some white gay and lesbian people who have said, “Well, I\n14 don’t know about this direction,” but we’ve had way more who have said, “I love this and I think\n15 this work is important.” And we always just say, “You know, well we’re just cleaning the list.”\n16 AJ: Right.\n17 KDS: We’re bringing along the people who are ready and I think that people . . . it used to be GLBT\n18 and then folks said, “We should center women and we should say LGBT.” Well, let’s get to a\n19 place where we say, “TL . . .” where we are centering around out movement for trans folks and\n20 trans people of color. Trans women of color are at so much greater risk, like thousands and\n21 thousands of times greater for violence and for . . .\n22 AJ: Yeah, wow. I’m getting emotional listening to you here, Davis.\n23 KDS: It’s just . . . I feel like it’s our job as . . . it’s mostly, I told my friends who identify, or who pass, as\n24 just white lesbians and gays, I said, “It’s your job to tell people, ‘Hey, this is what’s important\n25 and here’s what’s up.’” And like you said, if we lift up the most marginalized, everything is going\n26 to be better.\n27 AJ: Wow, well thanks for that explanation – that’s a great t-shirt. I need one of those in my life.\n28 KDS: Yeah.\n29 AJ: So, you grew up in Pittsburgh, intact family, dad was a huge sort of political activist and really\n30 put you on a path of social justice.\n31 KDS: Yes.\n32 AJ: When did you first realize, and you told me – maybe this answer is the same as what you saw in\n33 the mirror, but when did you first sort of realize that you were not the gender you were\n34 assigned at birth?\n35 KDS: Probably when I was young because I just felt like I am nothing like these girls that I know, but\n36 I’m also not really like these boys that I know. I felt . . . I had some friends who were male\nK. Davis Senseman 13\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nfriends who were not typical boys. I felt kind of a kinship with them, like this 1 is pretty close to\n2 what I am.\n3 AJ: Sure.\n4 KDS: But then I just kind of adopted like . . . when I was young, in the 1980s, it was OK to be a tomboy\n5 and it was . . . we didn’t have super gendered clothes except for dresses and so it was OK that all\n6 my clothes looked like boy’s clothes because also we had a neighbor that was a little older than\n7 me so I just got all his clothes. So, it was . . . so the hand-me-down train worked pretty well.\n8 But, you know, I think I was always . . . I grew my hair long when I was in Catholic school because\n9 that’s what I was supposed to do and my grandmother liked to put it in a super tight braid. I\n10 mean, I still did boy things – I still played sports, I still didn’t get into boys and make-up and\n11 things like that, but I feel like I did a lot just because I was in Catholic school, we wore a skirt\n12 every day . . .\n13 AJ: You were just on the train – you were just riding the girl train.\n14 KDS: Yeah, “This is the way you go.”\n15 AJ: Yeah.\n16 KDS: I feel like when I was kind of in my junior and senior year of high school, all of my friends were\n17 kind of the very pretty popular girls, but I was always just kind of their go-between because\n18 they’d always be fighting about something or some boy. I always felt like the go-between of,\n19 “Oh, no, let me explain to the two of you, this idiot boy that you’re worried about is not going to\n20 be important.” And so, then when I got into college, I feel like that’s kind of when I realized,\n21 “Oh, I am definitely different and it goes beyond I don’t think I’m attracted to boys or these boys\n22 that I dated.”\n23 AJ: Right, it was more than that.\n24 KDS: It was more than that. But, I really don’t think until . . . my college was in the middle of\n25 Pennsylvania – pretty, small.\n26 AJ: What school did you go to?\n27 KDS: I went to Bucknell, which is kind of . . . Lewisburg, which people are like, “Oh, I can see the lights\n28 of Bucknell from . . .” And I’m like, “No, that’s a penitentiary.” I went to college and I started\n29 taking sociology and English classes, English had always been kind of one of my things.\n30 Sociology, you had to go one of two ways – it was either kind of criminal justice or human . . .\n31 kind of if you were going to be more like a social worker or something. I started taking criminal\n32 justice classes and learning about . . . I had a professor who had done all this writing about how\n33 there’s no such thing as crack babies – there are babies that are undernourished but those\n34 babies, that is a result of economic conditions and . . .\n35 AJ: Systemic . . .\n36 KDS: Yeah, systemic racism and social conditions, not a result of, “Oh, we can just write it off as . . .” I\n37 remember thinking, “Oh, gosh, this is . . . there is a lot out there.” And then I started . . . I\nK. Davis Senseman 14\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nworked full-time when I was in school so I was an athletic trainer because you 1 got to just travel\n2 with the different sports teams – I wasn’t playing sports anymore but you got to travel . . .\n3 AJ: You were really into sports for a while.\n4 KDS: Well, in Pittsburgh football kind of reigns the world.\n5 AJ: Exactly – the Steelers.\n6 KDS: Yes, exactly. So, we learned to tape ankles and stuff and it was good – it paid well, you got to\n7 work a lot of hours because you had to go to practice and always be there.\n8 AJ: Right.\n9 KDS: So, I started working with the softball team and the volleyball team, which was so cliché and I\n10 met my first . . . I’d known gay people and lesbians but I met my first gender queer . . . like really,\n11 you do not know whether Stacey is . . . she gets wrong bathroomed all the time.\n12 AJ: So, like Pat from Saturday Night Live.\n13 KDS: Yes, Stacey was just like . . . and she’s a poet and now she’s a professor over in Nebraska. I met\n14 her and was like . . . this is a person that is just like me.\n15 AJ: Wow.\n16 KDS: And so, Stacey kind of took me under her wing and was like, “Listen.” Just was like, “I’m going\n17 to always sit down and talk to you, I’m going to always . . .” And kind of for the rest of college, I\n18 was just like, “This is . . .” And I didn’t kind of say, “I think I’m queer or . . .” At all, until the very\n19 end of college, but I just was like, “Oh, this person is going to be . . . she’s a year younger than\n20 me but like this person was going to be my mentor.”\n21 AJ: Wow.\n22 KDS: Because Stacey has known what she is since a very young age.\n23 AJ: And clearly you guys are still in communication.\n24 KDS: Yes.\n25 AJ: In relationship, I should say.\n26 KDS: So she . . . it was just like . . . and then coming into my own and really kind of learning . . . she\n27 grew up out on Long Island and was like, “I’ve been out as queer since the age of 15,” and was\n28 just like, “Listen, this is how it is and this is how . . .” It was really just . . . it just felt so good to\n29 kind of have another . . .\n30 AJ: Yeah, being that . . . I am not alone kind of thing.\n31 KDS: Exactly. And I feel like that was when I realized that, “Oh no, this is how I am. I’ve been getting\n32 there, but this is who I am.”\n33 AJ: What have been some of the challenges that you have faced since you made that determination\n34 and began to express yourself more outwardly as gender non-conforming?\nK. Davis Senseman 15\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nKDS: So, when I got my job out of law school I was lucky because I landed at a firm 1 that was pretty\n2 progressive – the attorneys were pretty liberal. But it was . . . as I kind of embraced this is who I\n3 am and this is how I will dress and this is who I will be, I think they were . . . they were fine with\n4 it, they really liked having a queer person because they were a smaller firm – they had 30-some\n5 attorneys. So, I came up to the year where . . . and I worked hard for them and brought them in\n6 a lot of business and was pretty efficient, and it came to the year where I was supposed to . . . it\n7 was seven years and you would make partner at their firm. So, I was having my review and they\n8 were like, “You know, you made us a lot of money, you get along with everyone, your work\n9 quality is great.” And their managing partner said to me, “But there’s just something about you\n10 that some of the partners . . .” I was like, “Yeah, there is something about me that’s not like any\n11 of you. I’m a queer person and I’m also not an easily palatable . . . like could pass as a straight\n12 lady lesbian. I’m me.”\n13 AJ: Yeah.\n14 KDS: I just went home and was like, “Phhh.” I said to him, I said, “Yeah, everything about me is not\n15 like you and if that’s good enough to make you money but not to share your money, then that’s\n16 . . .” I went home and I said to my partner at that time – my son’s mom, I just said, “You know, I\n17 can’t work for these people.” I tell my clients all the time, “Don’t go into business with or get\n18 into relationship with or get into anything with someone who doesn’t value you or doesn’t value\n19 what you are.” I said, “That’s what I’m going to be doing.” And so, that’s when I decided . . .\n20 AJ: So, they didn’t fire you but they did not want to make you partner.\n21 KDS: Yeah, they were . . .\n22 AJ: Which you had earned.\n23 KDS: Right. And they kind of were like . . . and then the next day, of course being lawyers were like,\n24 “Oh, gee, this did not work out well.”\n25 AJ: Right, exactly.\n26 KDS: They said, “I think you misunderstood, we were just saying . . . no, you’re going to be a partner,\n27 we just were . . .” And I was like, “No, it doesn’t matter. I’m gone now.”\n28 AJ: I’m out, right.\n29 KDS: And it was good, and it’s been . . . it’s been so nice because now it’s like I am who I am, I look\n30 how I look, no one is coming into our firm being surprised that I’m here. One of my law\n31 partners, who is a straight white woman, said, “I watch . . .,” because we’ve talked about how\n32 we need to expand, as we expand, really be intentional about having attorneys who look like\n33 our clients and making sure that we find people who are underrepresented. And she said, “And,\n34 you know, we do have to because I watch when our queer or trans clients come in and they see\n35 you and their shoulders drop because they realize . . .”\n36 AJ: “I can let my guard down a little bit.”\nK. Davis Senseman 16\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nKDS: Yeah, exactly. And she said, “I want that, I want every single client th 1 at comes to us to be able\n2 to see themselves in one of our attorneys.”\n3 AJ: Wow.\n4 KDS: It’s like, “Yeah, that’s good because I do too.”\n5 AJ: Wow. What have been some of the joys since you have decided to express your truer gender\n6 identity?\n7 KDS: It’s been . . . I think having a son helped me get there because kids are so . . . and he, his whole\n8 life, kind of bounced back and forth between male and female pronouns. We have tapes of him\n9 singing about me and using both he and she pronouns about his Baba. He’d just flow back and\n10 forth. And, getting to know kids, I feel like having a kid in your life you’re around a lot of other\n11 kids, kids are part of the greatest joy of being gender queer and gender non-conforming,\n12 because kids like things that are different and kids, for the most part – if they’re around, if\n13 they’re not only around people who look just like them, and they’ll just ask, “Hey, are you a boy\n14 or a girl?”\n15 AJ: Right, exactly.\n16 KDS: “So you’re kind of a girl but you look like a boy.” And you can be like, “Yeah,” and they’ll be like,\n17 “Oh, OK.” They’re just so honest and they’re just so . . . I feel like every time a kid asks me,\n18 because if they’re with a parent, the parent is like . . .\n19 AJ: Exactly.\n20 KDS: . . . has a panic attack and it’s like I love when kids are like, “What are you?” I’m like, “Well, I’m\n21 kind of in the middle.” They’re like, “Cool.” And then they just go about their day and then\n22 they’re like, “Hey, I met someone who is in the middle,” and I think gosh, what if when I was 6 or\n23 7 I met someone who was like, “I’m kind of in the middle.” It would be like, “Whoa.”\n24 AJ: So, I need to ask this question but to the extent that you feel comfortable sharing, what medical\n25 interventions have you pursued or intend to pursue, potentially, as a part of your gender\n26 identity?\n27 KDS: Yes – none, really, to date. I mean, I bind daily because the last time I ever bought an actual bra,\n28 my partner said, “Oh, these are very feminine.” I said, “Well, I was shopping in the men’s\n29 department, I just couldn’t find the masculine bras.” And she was like, “Oh, that’s a good\n30 point.” I said, “I want to get rid of all these and I just want binders.” The clothes I wear fit\n31 better and I feel better.\n32 AJ: Yeah.\n33 KDS: So, I bind daily. I think sometimes about should I have top surgery. I would probably be happy,\n34 but, you know, I’m 41 and I’m like I could also just continue being who I am and shocking people\n35 if they ever see me out of a binder.\n36 AJ: Only a few select people get to see that, right?\nK. Davis Senseman 17\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\n1 KDS: Exactly.\n2 AJ: Yeah, I used to always say, and I still do – yeah, nobody really is going to know what’s going on\n3 in your pants unless you want them to.\n4 KDS: Exactly.\n5 AJ: And so, it’s really a social transition that is probably the most important.\n6 KDS: Exactly. And people, I know people wonder. I had a close friend say to me at one point, “How\n7 do you make sure everything is so flat right there?” I was like, “Oh, I’ll show you – here, this is\n8 what these look like.” I said, “I’m really lucky because there are people, entrepreneurs out\n9 there every day that are making better and better binders,” and they were like, “Oh, this is\n10 pretty cool.”\n11 AJ: So, it doesn’t . . . it’s not painful?\n12 KDS: No.\n13 AJ: I hear a lot of people who say they can’t breathe and . . .\n14 KDS: For me, I don’t have a very big chest, and so, you know, for me it’s pretty easy. I think for a lot\n15 of people who have bigger chests, it’s harder and they just have to have top surgery because\n16 there’s no way they’re going to . . . for me, I’m lucky. But no, I’ve found really great . . . it’s not\n17 like you can walk into a store and buy them, but there are great folks selling things online and\n18 more people every day kind of making new . . . it’s nice because I, in my job, work with business\n19 owners and so a lot of them will get in touch and say, “Hey, I’m doing this,” and I’m like,\n20 “Fantastic.”\n21 AJ: So, I know you’re married.\n22 KDS: Yup, yup.\n23 AJ: But, what’s your sexual identity?\n24 KDS: I just normally say queer because, you know, I’m mostly . . . I’m married.\n25 AJ: And you’re married to a cis-identified . . .?\n26 KDS: Cis-identified woman. She identifies as queer because she doesn’t . . . she’s attracted to far\n27 more masculine people and those are sometimes . . . I don’t know if she’d date a cis man every\n28 again, but trans men, gender queers, that’s kind of her . . . but, yeah – I have . . . I mostly date, I\n29 feel, like cis women but I think that’s also just a product of who I know and who I’m around. I\n30 mostly probably date femme women, but I’ve also dated lots of folks who are kind of more\n31 androgynous. Sometimes when people see pictures of . . ., “Oh, and this is who I have a son\n32 with,” and they’re like, “Whoa.” I always say I have types but there’s a couple of them. But,\n33 yeah, I identify as queer just kind of in everything.\n34 AJ: Yeah.\n35 KDS: It makes me bristle when someone says, “Oh, are you a lesbian?” I’m like, “No.”\nK. Davis Senseman 18\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nAJ: No, OK. So, how do 1 you define queer?\n2 KDS: For me, it’s partially who I’m sexually attracted to – you know, that they’re way more than just\n3 the spectrum of just men and women, there are all sorts of folks in the middle. It’s also, I feel\n4 culturally queer – like I feel more community with other folks who I feel identify themselves as\n5 queer. And, you know, it’s also just kind of who . . . I know there are lots of elders or people\n6 who are older than me, just a little bit, who they don’t like the term queer – and I get that. My\n7 father-in-law, who is like the world’s biggest progressive is like, “Don’t say that word in my\n8 house.”\n9 AJ: Oh, wow.\n10 KDS: Because, to him, people used it as a slur and we’ve told him . . .\n11 AJ: Is he gay-identified?\n12 KDS: No, no. He’s straight – he’s a straight white man. He’s just like, “No, you don’t . . .” And we’ve .\n13 . .\n14 AJ: It’s like saying the “n” word.\n15 KDS: Yes, exactly. And we’ve really had to tell him that a lot of our friends, kind of all of us, identify\n16 that way. He’s coming around but I know he’s still just . . . it doesn’t feel . . . and I also like queer\n17 because I feel like sometimes straight people or completely cis people who don’t get it are afraid\n18 to say it, so I sometimes like to be like, “I’m queer,” because then they’re like . . .\n19 AJ: But there is a generational divide and I think, again I was talking about some of these same\n20 issues yesterday, and how the word queer tends to . . . not solely, but tends to have a much\n21 more political identity wrapped up in it, which you have clearly stated that that is sort of a part\n22 of your queerness is this analysis around race and gender identity, which sometimes just, you\n23 know, lesbian or gay or straight-identified people don’t have those kinds of analysis. So, queer\n24 sort of . . .\n25 KDS: Yeah, it’s kind of like an umbrella but there is a lot of different avenues under it.\n26 AJ: Or, an entry point to . . .\n27 KDS: Yes – yes, to all these different . . .\n28 AJ: Not only an umbrella but also I feel like it’s sort of an opening or something.\n29 KDS: Yes. No, I think that’s very true.\n30 AJ: Yeah. Are you out to your mom and grandmother? Aunt Annie?\n31 KDS: Aunt Annie, you know I never even got to meet Aunt Annie.\n32 AJ: Oh, you never meet Aunt Annie?\n33 KDS: No, she passed away before I was . . . well, I probably met her when I was younger, but that I\n34 recall . . . maybe once, maybe one time. But, she passed away when I was 6 or 7. My\n35 grandmother passed away when I was in college and then after my father died – so he died right\nK. Davis Senseman 19\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nafter I graduated from law school, he said to me, “I want you to try to . . .” 1 When he was kind of\n2 telling me, “This is the reason I stayed with her and I know it’s been hard to have her.”\n3 AJ: Sure.\n4 KDS: He said, “I want you to try to have a relationship with her, but I know I’m not here – there’s\n5 nobody here to run interference.”\n6 AJ: To mediate that, yeah.\n7 KDS: And he said, “You take care of yourself.” And so, I feel like when he died he kind of gave me a\n8 blessing to . . . you give it your best shot but then . . . and so, I tried for like a year and she kind\n9 of vacillates back and forth between . . . she writes letters and all these different things. Then\n10 my partner, at the time, who I . . . I didn’t think I’d ever have children because I thought I will\n11 never put a child in that situation that I was in and then my partner at the time just said to me\n12 once after I had dealt with my mother calling and ranting, she said, “You don’t have to . . . you\n13 don’t owe her anything anymore.”\n14 AJ: Right.\n15 KDS: It was just like suddenly somebody else saying, “You don’t owe this person anything anymore.”\n16 I just said, “Listen, I need you to go get help, I need you to get a diagnosis, I need you to be on\n17 medication if there is medication that will help, and I don’t want to hear from you until there is a\n18 doctor or someone treating you that gets in touch with me.” And, I mean, she reaches out to\n19 me sometimes, she sends letters and things, but she hasn’t . . .\n20 AJ: She hasn’t met those conditions?\n21 KDS: Right. So, I don’t have any contact with her. She knows I’m queer, she knows I’m pretty gender\n22 queer. You can find me on the internet. But, yeah – so I don’t have any contact with her and it’s\n23 . . . it’s the healthiest thing for me.\n24 AJ: Sure.\n25 KDS: It’s the healthiest thing for my kids, it’s the healthiest thing for my partner. But, yeah – it’s hard\n26 to explain to people. It would be easier to be able to say like, “No, all my family is dead.”\n27 AJ: Yeah.\n28 KDS: But for me, it’s like, “Hmmm, most of them are dead, and the ones . . .”\n29 AJ: So, you have a . . . you clearly have a family in the sense of how we define family in our culture\n30 and society, but what about chosen family? Is that a big part of your reality?\n31 KDS: Yeah, it sure is. Yeah, our family structure is interesting because I had my son with my previous\n32 partner and we’re still a huge part of each other’s lives – and, very close.\n33 AJ: Your former partner is a very well known small business owner in the community.\n34 KDS: Yes, Jennifer Pritchett who owns Smitten Kitten.\n35 AJ: Yeah.\nK. Davis Senseman 20\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nKDS: And so yeah, we are still very important to each other, which I think is odd to 1 a lot of people.\n2 My wife, Sarah, has . . .\n3 AJ: It’s pretty common in the LGBT world anyway.\n4 KDS: Yeah, it is. My wife has a previous partner who she shares our 13-year-old with. We’ve got a\n5 pretty huge chosen family and it’s . . . some of them are here, some of mine are in New York,\n6 some of Sarah’s are in Chicago. But yeah, it’s big. And it’s . . . I think it’s interesting because our\n7 kids, they just have so many people around them. Like someone, when Tommy was like two or\n8 three, they said, “Hey, do you have a dad?” And he said, “Oh, no – I don’t have a dad, but I have\n9 so many grown-ups, you have no idea.”\n10 AJ: Oh, wow.\n11 KDS: He used to . . . when people would be like, “Who is in your family?” or draw . . . he would put\n12 people, like whoever we happened to be seeing a lot at that time, or friend’s dogs that we\n13 watch. Yeah, he would just put them in there.\n14 AJ: Wow, I love it.\n15 KDS: He often . . . I serve on boards, Sarah does too – Sarah has work people, Jennifer has a huge\n16 community around her store. We just . . . he just . . . our kids are lucky because they just have\n17 so many people and they’ve got so many people they can go to for different things.\n18 AJ: Right.\n19 KDS: It’s nice and it’s freeing to be a queer person and be like, “I can define my family however I\n20 want.”\n21 AJ: Davis, this interview has been so fascinating to me because you have organically answered most\n22 of the questions I typically ask. This is so amazing.\n23 KDS: Good.\n24 AJ: You mentioned being on the board of PFund. Have you worked for other LGBT and/or\n25 volunteered for other LGBT organizations?\n26 KDS: Yeah. We do a lot of pro bono or reduced fee work for LGBT non-profits and things. We’ve\n27 worked with RECLAIM, we’ve worked kind of tangentially sometimes with OutFront. Gosh, yeah\n28 – I’m also on the board of an organization called Still Kickin, which is kind of an organization that\n29 just exists to . . . the mission is to help awesome people through awful things – so, it’s basically\n30 kind of a consistent . . . just cash and other things for folks.\n31 AJ: Is that associated with Still Ain’t Satisfied?\n32 KDS: No, no – but I know Still Ain’t Satisfied. Still Kickin is a newer organization and we’ve . . . over\n33 the course of kind of my lawyering, I feel like we have dealt with or know folks or feel close to\n34 almost every LGBT organization here in town. I feel so lucky to have landed in Minnesota\n35 because we just have so much good stuff going on.\n36 AJ: Yeah, there’s a lot – it’s a great community.\nK. Davis Senseman 21\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nKDS: I mean we’ve got . . . there’s a lot of issues to still figure out in Minneapolis, there’s 1 a lot of racial\n2 disparities, there’s a lot of socio-economic . . . especially in our kids and in our schools. But, I\n3 feel like the right people are here to do it. If anywhere is going to get it done, it’s going to be\n4 Minneapolis.\n5 AJ: Let me ask you this, where . . . is there a trans and gender non-conforming agenda? If you think\n6 there is, what is it? And, where do you see the trans community or the transgender, gender\n7 non-conforming movement over the next 50 years?\n8 KDS: I mean, right now, if someone were to speak about a trans agenda, I would say in this current\n9 climate the agenda is let us be alive and let us . . .\n10 AJ: Pee.\n11 KDS: Yeah, let us use your bathrooms and frequent your businesses. I really respect the trans and\n12 gender non-conforming movement because I feel like there is so much more open discussion\n13 about intersectionality in that movement. I feel like it is way better. You know, I feel like . . . I\n14 feel like a lot of the other movements, kind of like the movement for Black Lives and things like\n15 that, those movements have scooped up kind of all of the things that the gay agenda was\n16 pushing.\n17 AJ: Right.\n18 KDS: And have embraced it so well, in a way that I feel like the gay agenda has not embraced the\n19 needs and the principles of all the other movements. I was at the Facing Race Conference this\n20 year and . . . I was just a tagalong because my partner was going.\n21 AJ: In 2016 or 2017?\n22 KDS: 2016, I was there.\n23 AJ: So, last year.\n24 KDS: Last year – it was like the day after the election. It was a perfect place to be. But, you know, all\n25 of the name tags – you wrote your pronouns, all of the public bathrooms were unisex\n26 bathrooms – were gender-neutral bathrooms, there were signs in all the bathrooms that said,\n27 “Is someone giving you a problem? Text this number and someone will come right away.” I\n28 thought like . . . the mainstream gay and lesbian, GLBT, movement hasn’t embraced these other\n29 intersectionalities, hasn’t embraced the fight against Islamaphobia and the fight for\n30 undocumented individuals the way all these other movements have really just kind of made our\n31 issues a part of their . . . you know, have just embraced them.\n32 AJ: Platforms, yes.\n33 KDS: Yeah, and so I think . . . I think, I hope, that the greater gay agenda, it has to become more of a\n34 trans and gender non-conforming agenda because that’s where the issues are – that’s where\n35 the need is. If you’re a white middle class gay person right now, even this new president isn’t\n36 really affecting you that much – your biggest worry was, “Are they going to repeal marriage?”\nK. Davis Senseman 22\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nand every organization said, “No, they’re not going to repeal marriage,” 1 and you just went about\n2 your life.\n3 AJ: Exactly. As an attorney, can they repeal marriage?\n4 KDS: They can’t . . . they won’t repeal marriage, they can strip away at kind of the rights and it can be\n5 challenged.\n6 AJ: But that’s going to impact every married person, right?\n7 KDS: Exactly, yeah.\n8 AJ: So, not a lot of people are going to be happy about that.\n9 KDS: No, no. And I mean . . . so I hope, so I think there is a trans and gender non-conforming\n10 movement. I think right now it’s just a movement for . . . why don’t you see my humanity and\n11 give me my human rights which how can that not be the forefront of a greater movement?\n12 AJ: Sure.\n13 KDS: But I hope that . . . I hope that every LGBT organization is run by people of color and trans folks\n14 and gender non-conforming folks and not like easily palatable – like, “Here I am.” I don’t think\n15 we’re there yet and I’m fine with doing what we need to do to get there, but I think that’s . . . I\n16 think the trans movement and the gender non-conforming movement is going to be . . . it\n17 affects everybody, it affects more than just trans people. It affects your kids who you don’t\n18 want to be put into a gender box. It affects the value – like saying that women are not inferior\n19 to men. There’s a lot of principles that kind of go along with that.\n20 AJ Oh, yeah.\n21 KDS: And I’m hoping that that’s kind of where this bigger movement against the current political\n22 climate will go. And, you know, I feel like there are leaders right now who are talking about that\n23 – like Linda Sarsour, I follow everything she does.\n24 AJ: Linda?\n25 KDS: Linda Sarsour, she is a Palestinian activist, and she is one of the leaders of the women’s march in\n26 Washington.\n27 AJ: Can you spell her name?\n28 KDS: Sure. L-i-n-d-a S-a-r-s-o-u-r. She runs an organization . . .\n29 AJ: Sansour?\n30 KDS: Sarsour – yes. She’s from New York, she runs an Islamic organization – an Islamic rights\n31 organization out of New York.\n32 AJ: Sure.\n33 KDS: And she is just speaking so eloquently right now about how it’s time to all get together and\n34 we’ve got to bring everyone along because we can’t be . . . no one is going to be perfect and\nK. Davis Senseman 23\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\neveryone is going to make mistakes but we’re going to kind of do this. 1 And that’s how she\n2 stepped into the women’s march – people were saying correctly that there’s nothing\n3 intersectional about this, you people who are organizing this don’t have any idea about racial\n4 issues and Islamophobia and so they went out and they got a Black woman, a Muslim woman,\n5 and a Latina woman and said, “Will you come and run this?” And so, they are.\n6 AJ: Are you going?\n7 KDS: Yeah, our whole firm is going.\n8 AJ: Is that right?\n9 KDS: Yes, we’re closing the firm and we’re going.\n10 AJ: Wow.\n11 KDS: Yeah, I’m excited. I feel like these . . .\n12 AJ: So, you’re going to the women’s march in Washington, DC on January 21st, which is sort of this\n13 resistance or opposition to the inauguration of President Trump?\n14 KDS: Yes. And also kind of a starting place. They’ve been very clear that this won’t be the end of it –\n15 you know, come to this march and then go home. But it’s going to be an opportunity for people\n16 to kind of learn – they’re having an event about teaching women to run for office.\n17 AJ: Yes.\n18 KDS: Yeah, I think it’s going to be great.\n19 AJ: Oh, my gosh.\n20 KDS: I’m really excited to take my law partners. I was like, “Let’s just do this, let’s close it all down\n21 and go.”\n22 AJ: Wow. I think the future of the movement is in pretty good hands if you’re going to be a part of\n23 it.\n24 KDS: Thank you.\n25 AJ: I really appreciate the opportunity to sit down with you today and for you to contribute your\n26 story and history to this project. I think this contribution is certainly as significant as every one of\n27 the interviews that I’ve been able to do so far. I just want to say thank you for being in the\n28 world and doing the work that you do, Davis.\n29 KDS: Well, thank you. And thank you for including me, because like I said, it’s been a journey and I\n30 often times have felt like, “Well, I’m not gender non-conforming enough; I’m not trans enough.”\n31 And so, I was really excited.\n32 AJ: I think that that’s a struggle that many of us share and certainly I myself. But, thank you so\n33 much.\n34 KDS: Well, thank you.\nK. Davis Senseman 24\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nAJ: Until we meet 1 again, my friend.\n2 KDS: All right.", "_version_": 1710339106680078336, "type": "Moving Image", "collection": "p16022coll97", "is_compound": false, "parent_id": "103", "thumb_url": "https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1369852/thumbnail/entry_id/0_3gb185d3", "thumb_cdn_url": "https://dkp5i0hinw9br.cloudfront.net/0f2bec1e87881d256b5283a081512fe709f7a400.png", "children": [ ] }