{ "id": "p16022coll97:14", "object": "https://cdm16022.contentdm.oclc.org/utils/getthumbnail/collection/p16022coll97/id/14", "set_spec": "p16022coll97", "collection_name": "Tretter Transgender Oral History Project", "collection_name_s": "Tretter Transgender Oral History Project", "collection_description": "
The Tretter Transgender Oral History Project (TTOHP) collects, preserves, and makes accessible oral histories of gender transgression, especially as theyintersect with race, age, sexuality, citizenship, class, and ability. The project seeks to document the power and vision of trans movements for justice through the stories of activists working to imagine another world.
\n\nThe first phase of the Tretter Transgender Oral History Project was led by poet and activist Andrea Jenkins—who became the first Black transgender woman to serve in office in the US after she was elected, in 2017, to the Minneapolis City Council. This phase of the project sought to document the life stories and experiences of transgender and gender non-conforming people, with a focus on people living in the upper Midwest as well as those often excluded from the historical record, including trans people of color and trans elders.
\n\nThe second phase of the Tretter Transgender Oral History Project is led by trans studies scholar Myrl Beam. This phase of work seeks to document histories of trans activist movements and politics in the US, and is grounded in the belief that trans movements for justice are about more than rights: they are about survival, and about creating a new, more fabulous, more livable, and more expansive world––one not structured by racialized gender norms. The oral histories collected during this phase document the transformative power of trans movements, and the stories of trans activists who are building them.
\n\nFor more about the project, visit: https://www.lib.umn.edu/tretter/transgender-oral-history-project.
", "title": "Interview with Stef Wilenchek", "title_s": "Interview with Stef Wilenchek", "title_t": "Interview with Stef Wilenchek", "title_search": "Interview with Stef Wilenchek", "title_sort": "interviewwithstefwilenchek", "description": "Stef Wilenchek is a white genderqueer person who grew up in Georgia and Ohio. At the time of this oral history, Wilenchek was living in Minneapolis and working at the University of Minnesota. In this oral history Wilenchek speaks at length about their childhood, growing up in the deep South, race and racism, family relationships, coming out, and working in college administration. They also touch upon their thoughts surrounding institutional change.", "date_created": [ "2015-09-11" ], "date_created_ss": [ "2015-09-11" ], "date_created_sort": "2015", "creator": [ "Wilenchek, Stef" ], "creator_ss": [ "Wilenchek, Stef" ], "creator_sort": "wilenchekstef", "contributor": [ "Jenkins, Andrea (Interviewer)" ], "contributor_ss": [ "Jenkins, Andrea (Interviewer)" ], "notes": "Forms part of the Tretter Transgender Oral History Project, Phase 1.", "types": [ "Moving Image" ], "format": [ "Oral histories | http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300202595" ], "format_name": [ "Oral histories" ], "dimensions": "1:05:04", "subject": [ "White", "South (United States)", "Education", "Race", "Racism", "Family Relationships", "Coming Out", "Work", "Mental Health", "1980s", "1990s", "2000s", "Harassment", "Discrimination", "Gender Affirming Care", "Activism, Social Movements", "Classism", "Sex and Love", "Privilege", "Tretter Transgender Oral History Project Phase 1" ], "subject_ss": [ "White", "South (United States)", "Education", "Race", "Racism", "Family Relationships", "Coming Out", "Work", "Mental Health", "1980s", "1990s", "2000s", "Harassment", "Discrimination", "Gender Affirming Care", "Activism, Social Movements", "Classism", "Sex and Love", "Privilege", "Tretter Transgender Oral History Project Phase 1" ], "language": [ "English" ], "city": [ "Minneapolis" ], "state": [ "Minnesota" ], "country": [ "United States" ], "continent": [ "North America" ], "geonames": [ "http://sws.geonames.org/5037657/" ], "parent_collection": "Tretter Transgender Oral History Project", "parent_collection_name": "Tretter Transgender Oral History Project", "contributing_organization": "University of Minnesota Libraries, Jean-Nickolaus Tretter Collection in Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Studies.", "contributing_organization_name": "University of Minnesota Libraries, Jean-Nickolaus Tretter Collection in Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Studies.", "contributing_organization_name_s": "University of Minnesota Libraries, Jean-Nickolaus Tretter Collection in Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Studies.", "contact_information": "University of Minnesota Libraries, Jean-Nickolaus Tretter Collection in Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Studies. 111 Elmer L. Andersen Library, 222 - 21st Avenue South, Minneapolis, MN 55455; https://www.lib.umn.edu/tretter", "fiscal_sponsor": "This project is funded through the generous support of The TAWANI Foundation, Headwaters Foundation and many individual donors.", "local_identifier": [ "tretter414_tohp013" ], "dls_identifier": [ "tretter414_tohp013" ], "persistent_url": "http://purl.umn.edu/249738", "rights_statement_uri": "http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-EDU/1.0/", "kaltura_audio": "1_ookv1p1r", "kaltura_video": "1_oj3zidjl", "kaltura_combo_playlist": "0_e33ki0vl", "page_count": 0, "record_type": "primary", "first_viewer_type": "kaltura_combo_playlist", "viewer_type": "kaltura_combo_playlist", "attachment": "15.pdf", "attachment_format": "pdf", "document_type": "item", "featured_collection_order": 999, "date_added": "2017-11-20T00:00:00Z", "date_added_sort": "2017-11-20T00:00:00Z", "date_modified": "2020-05-22T00:00:00Z", "transcription": "Stef Wilenchek Narrator Andrea Jenkins Interviewer\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota\nSeptember 11, 2015\nStef Wilenchek Interview 2\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nThe Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community. The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota. The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public.\nThe Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years. Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality. This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist. Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations. If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea.\nAndrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379\nStef Wilenchek Interview 3\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nAndrea Jenkins -AJ 1\nStef Wilenchek -SW 2\n3\n4\nAJ: My name is Andrea Jenkins and I am the oral historian for The Transgender Oral History Project 5 at the University of Minnesota, the Tretter Collection, and today is September 11, 2015, and I’m 6 here with Stef and I’m going to ask you to introduce yourself and tell us what your preferred 7 pronouns are, your gender identity as it is today, and your gender assigned at birth. 8\n9\nSW: Great. So my name is Stef Wilenchek and I use pronouns like they or them or just being referred 10 to as Stef. Let’s see, I was assigned female at birth and I identify as gender queer, third gender, 11 multi-gender, lots of different language . . . I’m like, “Oh, that works.” But gender queer is 12 usually the term I use. 13\n14\nAJ: How do you define gender queer? 15\n16\nSW: Gosh, I define it as . . . for me, personally, just not really identifying strongly sort of within the 17 binary of male/female or man/woman and always . . . I guess the first time I heard the word, and 18 I’m about to cuss – I apologize, the first time I heard the word gender fucking, like someone who 19 really messes with gender, I was like, “Oh, that’s me.” And that’s when I was doing feminist 20 work and women’s center work and understanding sort of my experience of being raised as a 21 woman and I was like, “This is the language I’ve been looking for, this is how I feel.” So gender 22 queer, so someone who really, for me, just doesn’t fit into traditional binary systems of male or 23 female. For me, it’s always kind of finding a balance and sort of pushing back on some of the 24 expectations around gender. 25\n26\nAJ: Interesting. Thank you. So, Stef, tell me just a little bit about your earliest memory – period, as 27 a person. 28\n29\nSW: As a person . . . the earliest memory. So not necessarily around gender, but just about . . . 30\n31\nAJ: It doesn’t have . . . if it was around gender, certainly share that, but it doesn’t have to be. 32\n33\nSW: Earliest memory . . . I’m trying to think what’s . . . I just had therapy today too so . . . let’s see, 34 my earliest memory. I remember being an infant in my crib, like shaking on the bars of the crib 35 – I remember that. So that’s probably one of my earlier memories. I eventually sort of climbed 36 out and broke my collarbone. I don’t remember that, but I do remember that feeling of sort of 37 standing up in my crib and shaking it and there was wheels to it so it was kind of rolling it 38 around. 39\n40\nAJ: That is the earliest . . . unless you were in your crib at three, that is the earliest memory anybody 41 has ever shared. 42\n43\nSW: Yeah, I feel like I . . . there’s a few early . . . yeah. 44\n45\nAJ: That’s awesome. 46\n47 Stef Wilenchek Interview 4\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nSW: I mean I wasn’t neglected as a child, it’s not like I was . . . 1\n2\nAJ: Like you were in jail. 3\n4\nSW: Yeah, exactly – I felt like it. 5\n6\nAJ: But the crib does have that sort of effect on you. 7\n8\nSW: It does, yes. 9\n10\nAJ: Where did you grow up? 11\n12\nSW: So, I grew up in Georgia, in Atlanta. I was adopted when I was three months old and later found 13 out my birth mom was from Georgia – Atlanta, a suburb . . . kind of a rural suburban suburb. 14 And then I grew up in suburban Atlanta city limits – Chamblee, Georgia. I lived there until I was 15 nine and then I lived in Nashville, Tennessee until I was about 14, then Cleveland, Ohio all the 16 way . . . I went to high school, college, and grad school in the northeast Ohio region. 17\n18\nAJ: OK. So your early sort of formative grammar school years were in Georgia? 19\n20\nSW: Yes. 21\n22\nAJ: What school did you go to? What was that like? 23\n24\nSW: I went to Nancy Creek Elementary School for three years and it was . . . reflecting on it as an 25 adult, lots of challenges that I think existed in any city and in southern cities around just a lot of 26 oppressions, white flight that existed in Atlanta, and probably experienced a lot more . . . I guess 27 for lack of a better word, diversity in Atlanta than I did when I moved to Nashville and even to 28 Ohio – like in terms of who was in our neighborhoods, who were our teachers, who were my 29 friends, things like that. But for me it was pretty . . . I grew up in a middle class, conservative, 30 Christian, southern family. My dad was actually from St. Paul but he and my grandparents had 31 moved to Georgia when he was a teenager and my mom grew up in Alabama, Birmingham. A 32 lot of my experience was pretty insolated, pretty what I would consider sort of stereotypical 33 middle class experience of having my own bedroom, having my own house, having food on the 34 table all the time. 35\n36\nAJ: Backyard. 37\n38\nSW: Backyard, swingset, neighbors to play with. Our neighborhood we had kids everywhere. We 39 kind of lived on a cul-de-sac so we were always in the street, we were up all night. 40\n41\nAJ: Were your parents professionals? 42\n43\nSW: They were – yeah, my dad was a banker most of his life, and then my mom was an elementary 44 school teacher. But she, our early years me and my sister who is three years older than me – 45 when we were younger she stayed at home, she was a stay at home mom but went back to 46 teaching eventually. 47 Stef Wilenchek Interview 5\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\n1\nAJ: So just the two siblings? 2\n3\nSW: Yes, just me and my sister that I grew up with. 4\n5\nAJ: You said you played with lots of other children, I’m wondering was it an integrated community 6 that you lived in? 7\n8\nSW: Not racially integrated that I was aware of. We had folks of different religions, class-wise it was 9 pretty mono culture. My school was probably a little bit more integrated for an Atlanta suburb. 10 We had, both our family and my grandparents who lived close to us, had maids that would come 11 to our house. Most of the folks that were serving in service industries were Black, African-12 American folks, so there was a really clear race and class divide that were really obvious. 13\n14\nAJ: So you actually had maids? 15\n16\nSW: Yes, I did. 17\n18\nAJ: What was that experience like for you? 19\n20\nSW: Now as an adult it makes me kind of nauseous. We had a maid and she went by the name 21 Elizabeth and it was when I was young and then after that I don’t think we had another person, 22 but she always made me laugh. I think when she was there I wanted to kind of connect with 23 her, she would play with our cat with me and we would just have . . . she was very sweet. And 24 then I remember she got fired from our . . . because she also worked at my grandparent’s house. 25 She was accused of stealing something – so yeah. 26\n27\nAJ: The classic movie – like that’s what happened in The Help. 28\n29\nSW: I know, I could have wrote that book and objectified and made a million dollars for someone 30 else’s story. Anyway sorry – see, I told you I’d say inappropriate things. 31\n32\nAJ: No, I think that’s just an interesting aspect to your upbringing and childhood and sort of how the 33 differences in the north and the south . . . in the south it was common that people had maids, 34 even with stay at home moms they had help cleaning the house. So, tell me about the first time 35 you sort of realized that the gender you were assigned at birth was something different or 36 something askew or just not quite the way you imagined everybody else feels about their 37 gender. 38\n39\nSW: One story I have in my head, and I don’t remember it sort of crystal clear but I think . . . I don’t 40 know exact age, like maybe five, six, seven. I remember learning what a tomboy was. I think 41 there was another girl who lived in the neighborhood, we went to school and someone was 42 calling her a tomboy. Another kid was like, “Yeah, it’s a girl who wants to be a boy.” And then 43 because . . . and maybe someone was calling me a tomboy too, I can’t remember, but I just felt 44 like, “Well, I don’t want to be . . .” I just had this memory of, “I don’t want to be a boy, but I 45 don’t want to be a girl.” I just felt like that term just really, even though I think tomboy can be 46 used for lots of different ways. So I never felt quite comfortable with that term or maybe just 47 Stef Wilenchek Interview 6\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nbecause of how it was defined to me as a kid, but I do remember having that moment of like, “I 1 don’t have language.” I probably spent most of my life not having language. Then my sister 2 who was, like many kids, very aware of gender too and she’s a cisgender woman and has always 3 sort of identified that way and very feminine. When she wanted to pick on me, she would call 4 me boy, she would make fun of me because I didn’t want . . . especially clothing-wise I didn’t 5 want to wear the clothes that “girls” were supposed to be wearing and fortunately my parents 6 were flexible with me. I was very more athletic and kind of always wanted to be outside doing 7 stuff and not inside. Back in those days TV and video games were . . . whatever, they were a 8 distant treat. So those are kind of my earliest memories and sort of other people acknowledging 9 my gender or questioning it. One memory, that is pretty strong that actually I’ve written some 10 poetry around is, I remember being at a fair with my dad, it was like a carnival at our school, and 11 they had this little train ride and I was sitting there with my dad and it was kind of like an open 12 cart and there was a number of people there. This other adult starting talking to my dad and to 13 me and said, “Oh, you have such a cute son,” or something to that point. I remember that was 14 the first time my dad didn’t . . . that I ever remember that happening with my dad and we both 15 just were silent, just sort of . . . and that’s what I remember the most, that dead silence. 16\n17\nAJ: So your dad didn’t correct them? 18\n19\nSW: I don’t think so, I don’t remember the correction and I think that’s why it stood out to me, that 20 there wasn’t a correction and I didn’t correct him. So it was just a memory that kind of sticks, 21 just kind of this really awkward, uncomfortable feeling for both of us. 22\n23\nAJ: Yeah. So what terms do you use to describe yourself now? I know you’ve sort of talked about 24 third gender and gender fucker, I think you sort of used at some point in time. So where are you 25 now? And then how has that shifted over time and what were some of the things that created 26 that shift? 27\n28\nSW: Yeah, I think I’m strongly gender queer. I think any terms that I start to see either other people 29 using or just that I haven’t seen being used before, and I think doing this work has really allowed 30 me to discover myself in ways that I probably never would have. 31\n32\nAJ: What’s your work? 33\n34\nSW: Oh, that’s right, what do I do? 35\n36\nAJ: I don’t know what you do. 37\n38\nSW: I am the director of GLBTA programs office at the University of Minnesota-Twin Cities. And so 39 most of my career I’ve been working with college students and about the past decade working 40 on LGBTQ issues specifically at other college campuses as well. 41\n42\nAJ: So you’re sort of the head honcho here, right? You’re the boss, this is where the bucks stops. 43\n44\nSW: Yes, most days – the buck definitely stops here. But yes, in terms of protecting staff and 45 everything, I don’t always feel like the boss – which is good, probably. I think this work has 46 really helped me come in contact with more language and understand . . . but I think the first 47 Stef Wilenchek Interview 7\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\ntime really gender queer was a word that, “Wow, this is an identity I can really use and take on.” 1 That was when I was working in Colorado and working with a student and we were talking a lot 2 and processing and Googling – this was back in 2005. Even though that’s only a decade ago it 3 still felt like . . . 4\n5\nAJ: There’s been a lot of world shift change in a decade. 6\n7\nSW: Yeah. So gender queer, multi-gender. At times I’ve sort of . . . and this is more complicated, I’ve 8 identified with the term intersex but not necessarily because I’ve been labeled that way by 9 other folks or haven’t been, but I think our bodies . . . our sex characteristics are so complex and 10 I feel like if I could identify my sex that’s sort of where I would want to be placed and how I 11 would want . . . that’s how I feel in my body as well. I think that’s reflected in what I want to 12 shift in my body and then some of it is also sort of gender expression. But that’s not necessarily 13 something publically I use because I think there are many folks that have been identified as 14 intersex or identify with that term because they’ve had either a lot of experiences or different 15 ways that medical professions have diagnosed it. So that’s not my experience so I don’t want to 16 kind of co-op that term either. 17\n18\nAJ: But you feel this integrated sort of –ness that is beyond the binary. 19\n20\nSW: Right. Yes. Maybe I’ll just keep saying that. 21\n22\nAJ: Have you experienced any sort of challenges since you’ve began to express your truest gender 23 identity? 24\n25\nSW: Definitely challenges. I’ve been lucky that I haven’t experienced any sort of physical violence or 26 harassment. I feel pretty insolated in some ways doing this work. I know I experienced some 27 physical violence as a kid around my gender expression. 28\n29\nAJ: In school, grade school? 30\n31\nSW: Mostly it was with family in different situations. I don’t remember anything in grade school – 32 but harassment too. And that’s when I was really unable to kind of have any language to 33 acknowledge who I was and I don’t think anyone else except maybe tomboy. 34\n35\nAJ: They just thought you were strange. 36\n37\nSW: Exactly, or just didn’t fit in. So since I’ve come out more there’s definitely been systematic 38 challenge that are more day to day whether that’s bathroom usage . . . 39\n40\nAJ: Those count, those are challenges. 41\n42\nSW: Yeah, and they’re ongoing. But there’s looks, the microaggression stuff. I think the biggest or 43 more apparent challenge I had was last January, or January 2015, I had top surgery and so the 44 year leading up to that trying to work and navigate the health insurance system here at the U 45 and a lot of barriers that came up that I had to fight and push back and try to navigate and felt 46 very lucky because I do do this work that I had some insight, I had some connection, I had a title 47 Stef Wilenchek Interview 8\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nthat probably helped get some response that if other staff or students were doing what I was 1 doing it might have been harder. So that was kind of one of the more recent challenges for me. 2\n3\nAJ: So you’ve had some medical intervention along this journey. Would you care to expound more? 4 Have you done hormonal therapy or thought about it? 5\n6\nSW: Yeah, I haven’t done hormonal therapy. I’ve thought about it but not very intensely. I say to 7 myself there’s maybe a one percent change that I’d ever do hormonal . . . sometimes I’m curious 8 about it but I’m just not interested with what I would image would be the effects of going on 9 testosterone. I think my . . . when I started going through puberty, when I started developing 10 breasts, I became pretty severely depressed. There were other things going on in our family 11 that probably led to that but, in hindsight . . . this wasn’t anything that was ever diagnosed, but I 12 tried to hide my breasts for many, many years and then developed some eating disorders, I 13 don’t know that they were directly related – they were related to a lot of different things, but 14 body image stuff. When I was able to kind of come to terms with, “Wow, I could have top 15 surgery,” it was like, “Oh my gosh, this feels like . . .” for a long time I was like I don’t identify as 16 what I . . . or at least the stories and the things that I was learning about transgenders, I don’t 17 identify with the stereotypically trans man. Like I’m not expecting to . . . 18\n19\nAJ: Binary trans man. 20\n21\nSW: Yeah, exactly. So I hadn’t found those stories and then I started to hear those stories and I kind 22 of opened up and I was like . . . for years, maybe two or three years, how can I find a way to 23 access surgery. So yeah, since then I feel great. It feels like the complete right decision, it kind 24 of feels like everything that at this point I really want to shift in my body around sex 25 characteristics . . . but who knows? That’s kind of why I say one percent, five percent. I don’t 26 know how I’m going to continue developing and grow and discover myself or discover new 27 things about myself. At one point I was like, “I really want to grow my hair out long again.” I 28 don’t know, I just have different ways of wanting to be. 29\n30\nAJ: It’s a fluid thing, that gender is. 31\n32\nSW: Yeah. 33\n34\nAJ: Talk about some of the positive aspects that you’ve experienced in really expressing your truest 35 gender identity. 36\n37\nSW: I think community connection and feeling like I’m living more in my full truth, like understanding 38 myself and being more OK with myself because so much negative . . . it felt like that was coming 39 at me whether from society or from family or friends for so long. I mean I feel like there’s some 40 spiritual gifts to discovering ourselves and that we have to offer to the world and to ourselves in 41 terms of just being . . . for me, I feel like I’ve addressed a lot of fears, I’ve sort of confronted 42 some vulnerability, and not completely . . . I’m still in therapy. But I feel like this journey that 43 I’m on, it feels a little bit more magical and so I think there’s that positive and to really find 44 deeper connections with other folks. I think to be able to interact and engage with, in particular 45 as a parent right now, to be able to support kids and support the kiddo in my life around gender 46 Stef Wilenchek Interview 9\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nin a way that I think is really . . . it can be very helpful. Maybe it makes me a little better parent 1 too. 2\n3\nAJ: Wow. 4\n5\nSW: At least my understanding. I think that can make a lot of parents whether cisgender or 6 transgender – yeah, by having knowledge, deeper understandings. 7\n8\nAJ: Deeper understanding of oneself? 9\n10\nSW: Yeah, exactly. And deeper understandings of gender. 11\n12\nAJ: So you have a kid in your life and in many instances that also means a relationship. Do you want 13 to talk about relationship, love, who are you attracted to, what bodies are you most inclined to 14 sort of pursue? And if you are in a relationship right now, who would that be? 15\n16\nSW: Yeah, so I am in a relationship and have been in a monogamous relationship with my partner for 17 a little over five years, so it’s the longest relationship I’ve been in and moved here to be with 18 her. She identifies as a cisgender queer bisexual, pansexual person. And, it always feels like you 19 have to define your partner’s identity to define your own – to some degree. 20\n21\nAJ: To some extent – yeah. 22\n23\nSW: I think my attractions to people are very broad and wide and fluid. I think I would probably . . . 24 in terms of my sexual orientation and sexuality, words that really resonate with me are queer, 25 pansexual, bisexual. When I went to college I came out as a lesbian and I feel like that’s now 26 kind of the term I identify with least – not because . . . I love lesbians. But realizing that even . . . 27\n28\nAJ: It’s just not enough. 29\n30\nSW: Yeah. And when I came out as a lesbian, I was a lesbian in college, actually that’s when I felt like 31 I had some freedom to actually start sleeping with male identified folks, mostly folks I knew to 32 be cisgender males. As I was coming out more trans, I think that kind of also helped me to 33 understand my attraction to men too and to male identified folks – trans men, cis men and had 34 to do some with my own gender fluidity and how I would perceive my gender in a moment, my 35 attraction. So, kind of . . . yeah. At one point I remember telling a student, or we were just kind 36 of talking about acronyms – this was a long time ago, but, “GLBT, I think I identify with every one 37 of those.” Which kind of, in some ways, feels like . . . I don’t know, are you just trying to be in 38 with every term? But to some degree there is some reality to that. I think that the folks I’ve 39 formed the most relationships with, like sort of romantic, intimate relationships tend to be with 40 women identified folks and usually kind of queer, bisexual women. And so that’s who I’ve been 41 mostly in relationship . . . I think learning about the term demi-sexual, so having . . . I feel like my 42 strongest attractions tend to be with folks that I feel kind of a spiritual connection to in some 43 way. 44\n45\nAJ: Say that term again? 46\n47 Stef Wilenchek Interview 10\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nSW: Demi-sexual. I just learned it a few years ago myself. 1\n2\nAJ: OK. 3\n4\nSW: I was like, “Oh, this is a great way of describing . . .” 5\n6\nAJ: And it means? 7\n8\nSW: I think sort of like . . . how I’ve learned to interpret it is folks who really don’t have strong sexual 9 attractions unless they have romantic or emotional or, I would say, even spiritual attractions to 10 other people. 11\n12\nAJ: Connections. 13\n14\nSW: Yeah, connections – and have that . . . but I don’t think that’s overarching true for me, I think I 15 have attractions to lots of different types of folks in different moments and different times. 16\n17\nAJ: What’s your relationship like with your birth family now? 18\n19\nSW: So my birth parents . . . 20\n21\nAJ: The family that you were reared in. 22\n23\nSW: Yeah . . . because my birth family is a whole other story. 24\n25\nAJ: Yes, you talked about the adoption and . . . 26\n27\nSW: Yeah, there’s another story there but not much there. So, my relationship now – it feels a little 28 bit complex. My parents have sort of always . . . not always, but when I came out in college they 29 kind of know me as being a lesbian and I think that’s still probably how they might define me. I 30 feel like I have to hide my gender expression, hide my gender identity in some ways. I think in 31 many ways it’s not surprising to them and in some ways . . . they’re southern conservatives who 32 are very loving people. I don’t want to make them out to be demons in any way, but politically 33 we just don’t talk politics. They’re very loving and kind and have taught me a lot of wonderful 34 things, but I do feel like I can’t be my full self around them. I think that does create some 35 distance, which might have existed no matter what. I talk to them on the phone maybe once or 36 twice a month and then see them a couple times a year. So when we do connect it’s strong and 37 close and we laugh a lot. But they know the work that I do, they’re proud of what I do. But 38 politically, my dad is Rush Limbaugh, my mom is a little bit more like . . . I think she’s a little bit 39 more open to things. But my dad, he has these . . . they both have these moments where I’m 40 like, “Why do you guys . . . you get this stuff.” They’re sort of set in their ways but for maybe 41 their own survival or their own reasons, I don’t know. 42\n43\nAJ: Are they still in Georgia? 44\n45\nSW: No, because we moved sort of up to Cleveland. They moved back to Georgia for a while and 46 then actually now are in Charlotte, North Carolina with my mom’s . . . my mom’s sister lives 47 Stef Wilenchek Interview 11\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nthere and all of her nieces and nephews live in that area. They’re pretty happy there right now. 1 Atlanta was getting too trafficky for them. My grandparents passed away, my mom’s parents, 2 so they moved to their house. So yeah. Good old Charlotte – the home of churches and banks. 3\n4\nAJ: Churches and banks. Have there been times when someone has been really helpful with 5 regards to the medical or educational institutions or criminal justice system or financial 6 institutions even – or someone has been really insensitive? What have been some of your 7 experiences with some of the institutions of our society? 8\n9\nSW: Yeah, I think probably where I’ve had the most contact and interaction with institutions would 10 probably be higher ed institutions, medical institutions, and I think . . . there’s probably been a 11 lot of positive or kind of more neutral interactions, which has been helpful. I’ve definitely had 12 folks who have been sort of advocates and really well intentioned or helped make things 13 happen, to make something change – in particular, I’m thinking some about my experience with 14 health insurance. I think, for me, sort of having the privilege of being in higher ed, having two 15 degrees – a bachelors and a masters, and working in higher ed there’s . . . the institution itself 16 does have some access to knowledge and opportunity and centers like ours that really allow 17 more education to happen, more awareness for myself and really benefited from all of that. So, 18 I feel lucky and privileged that I haven’t had any interaction with the criminal justice system and 19 a way that I feel like my gender identity was a part of the interaction directly towards me. And 20 then being around police officers no matter what is just weird sometimes, but I’ve also had to 21 educate a lot of them like on campuses and things like that. And then I think probably some of 22 the more challenging things that have happened, and most of this is kind of work related, is folks 23 intentionally mispronoun-ing. I totally don’t mind being “she’d” accidently or if it’s . . . and I 24 understand why other folks might not, but for the most part it’s like, “Oh, that’s fine.” I’m not 25 necessarily offended, this is what I prefer. But when there is a real intentional piece or a real, 26 kind of, defensive reaction around . . . that’s the same with my preferred name too, so the 27 systems that have . . . my legal name is Stephanie so it’s not that far of a shift but it’s really 28 important – Stef is really important to me, like the use of that name. 29\n30\nAJ: Sort of a gender-neutral . . . 31\n32\nSW: Yeah. And it feels more that way for me and not a nickname, it’s just the name that I want to 33 use. So sort of systematically those have been some challenges. 34\n35\nAJ: Can you share with me the first time you ever met a trans-identified or gender queer or gender 36 fucker person and what was that like? What was your reaction? 37\n38\nSW: So this was back in the 1980s, my sister had a . . . she identifies as straight and had a lot of gay 39 male friends. She was into fashion and art, this is kind of stereotypical stuff, and her best friend, 40 whose name is Robert, who has unfortunately passed, he would love to come over and drag and 41 wearing tiaras and sparkles. 42\n43\nAJ: To your parent’s house? 44\n45\nSW: Yeah, to my parent’s house. And Robert ended up being like a brother to us in some ways and 46 definitely so close to my sister. I think my dad . . . I remember my dad just really grumbling and 47 Stef Wilenchek Interview 12\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nmy mom probably put on her southern charm. There was a closeness there that had already 1 existed but I think . . . how Robert identified, I don’t know if he ever identified as sort of under 2 the trans umbrella but I think that was a first exposure to kind of what I would consider gender 3 fucking or . . . 4\n5\nAJ: Gender transgression maybe. 6\n7\nSW: Yes, in sort of a public way. I was 12, I had not been to a drag performance, I knew nothing. I 8 did have a swim coach in Atlanta, this is maybe the first time where I really felt like this, “Oh . . .” 9 I was a kid, I was like five or six, but my swim coach, and her name was Todd, and it was the first 10 time I had met a girl, she was a teenager or young adult, who had a boy’s name. 11\n12\nAJ: A traditionally guy’s name. 13\n14\nSW: Yeah, a traditional guy’s name. And she kind of was a tomboy-ish presenting person and had a 15 deeper voice. So I actually, she might be kind of more of my root because I feel like I sort of 16 wanted to be her and she was a great coach, just a very loving, kind person. My family were 17 sort of friends with her family. I looked her up later and actually she passed away and I think 18 every reference I saw to her was sort of indicating that she identified as a straight woman. I 19 don’t know her history and never was in contact with her after age nine. But she was someone 20 who was like, “Oh my gosh . . .” No other person like that had really existed so clearly to me in 21 terms of kind of feeling like just really not presenting in these stereotypical ways. So, Todd and 22 Robert. 23\n24\nAJ: Todd and Robert. 25\n26\nSW: Those two, yeah. 27\n28\nAJ: What do you think the relationship is like between the L, the G, the B and the T? And all that 29 comes under T – so gender queer, the non-binary, all that? 30\n31\nSW: And since I identify with all those terms, it’s really complex. 32\n33\nAJ: It’s come full circle for me. 34\n35\nSW: Really, I think it’s great. I think . . . oh, it’s so complex. So the relationship between . . . gosh, it 36 just depends so much on individuals and communities of folks and even towns that I’ve lived in. 37 I’ve seen sort of distinct divides. I do feel like the B and T and the Q have been sort of not in the 38 forefront, not been the center of our broader whatever we might call our LGBTQ history. I think 39 that is . . . I go to a place of thinking that there’s so much around gender and its relationship to 40 sexuality and homophobia and transphobia and how closely connected they are and overlapped 41 and what we’ve called that homophobia for years. It was like actually I think we’re talking about 42 transphobia. 43\n44\nAJ: Right. 45\n46 Stef Wilenchek Interview 13\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nSW: I think the historical picture I have in my mind sometimes is the Mattachine Society, those 1 pictures of them sort of marching and doing some fierce work to promote gay and lesbian, 2 homobilic . . . I didn’t even know the language then that I can remember. 3\n4\nAJ: How do you spell Mattachine? 5\n6\nSW: M-a-t-t-a-c-h-i-n-e. And to me it’s kind of that quintessential early – like 1950s, 1960s, mostly 7 white, upper class, educated men, cisgender men. I don’t want to negate the work that they 8 were doing but there was kind of this . . . I don’t even remember if there is something in writing 9 about this but it felt like this requirement – you need to show up in suits and ties, women need 10 to show up in a dress. 11\n12\nAJ: As heteronormative as possible. 13\n14\nSW: Yeah. And that sort of set the stage for many things and that complexity of where people use 15 and maybe even abuse their privilege to sort of advance oppressed identities and what does 16 that do for the rest of the folks. And it’s been how many years and now Silvia Rivera was still 17 being marginalized from mainstream media and . . . gosh, I’m forgetting her name . . . Johnson. 18\n19\nAJ: Marcia. 20\n21\nSW: Marcia – thank you. Marcia P. – I was thinking Sandra. Yeah, clearly the fact that I can’t 22 remember her name . . . Marcia P. Johnson. So those to me seemed like huge gaps, canyons, of 23 divide between groups and I think even . . . and group conversations too can . . . there’s plenty 24 of GL folks that I know that are fierce amazing trans, bi, queer activists and so it’s more of kind 25 of the broader movement that kind of allows for kind of those messaging to rise to the top 26 because that’s easier for . . . what’s easy for society to swallow. 27\n28\nAJ: Sure. 29\n30\nSW: And what do they want to see – so, voila – we have marriage. So that’s maybe more of my 31 political take on it all. Personally I think I felt . . . I’ve had a lot of close gay, male, cis friends that 32 had a very high levels of transphobia and sexism that really kind of created some divides in our 33 relationships. I have also felt, within the broader trans umbrella, felt moments of being like, 34 “Oh, I’m not trans enough.” As a gender queer person who hasn’t had similar experiences . . . I 35 mean, in all honest, Andrea, when I got my surgery I was like, “Oh, OK, now I can finally . . . I 36 have a story, I have a surgery story that allows me to kind of have more of an engraving on my 37 trans card.” 38\n39\nAJ: Sure. Has that been the case? 40\n41\nSW: It feels really internal. 42\n43\nAJ: Yeah, I mean nobody really goes around checking under your shirt, do they? 44\n45\nSW: No – just my kid, we’re a very cuddly family – when he was younger, not now. He’s really the 46 only one allowed to . . . yeah. So no, it hasn’t. I think it has been more internalized stuff or kind 47 Stef Wilenchek Interview 14\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nof that fear of maybe showing up . . . I think there were moments in my . . . where do I actually 1 fit under this trans umbrella? Do I have a right to? Are my experiences enough the same? Am I 2 co-oping, like there’s been internal struggles there too – not wanting to take on an identity that I 3 really didn’t know if I fit into. And that’s kind of that . . . so yeah, a lot of wrestling internally 4 there. But I think there’s been one or two moments with individuals that are being like, you 5 know hearing, “Gender queer people don’t . . .” Or reading something, “They don’t exist or they 6 don’t know.” That kind of stuff. 7\n8\nAJ: Sort of like the bisexual white men, your greedy views . . . 9\n10\nSW: “You’re on the fence, why aren’t you . . .?” You know – like, “pick a team.” 11\n12\nAJ: Well clearly you work for an LGBT organization here on campus. Have you been involved in 13 other activist type activities related to the LGBT community or any volunteer experiences, 14 boards or . . .? Marching or . . .? 15\n16\nSW: Yeah, different things at different points in my life. In the 1990s I participated in a couple . . . or 17 I think it was 1993 and then 2000, the Marches on Washington. I did a lot in the rape crisis 18 movement, the sexual violence movement in the 1990s, particularly on college campuses. But I 19 was on a board in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, a domestic violence and sexual violence board. 20 I’ve worked in the non-profit area for a little bit. I worked with folks as kind of a small collective 21 of folks that created a dyke march in North Carolina – way back in 2000 . . . 2000-something. 22\n23\nAJ: Deep south. 24\n25\nSW: In the deep south – yeah. We didn’t know for sure if it was the first one but it was the most 26 recent one. It was . . . I think we had it on a Sunday and we had folks showing up with shirts off 27 and pasties and I was trying to get folks organized – we got a guide and the officers are coming 28 up to me and were like, “Tell them to put their shirts on.” “You arrest them, you tell them – you 29 can’t arrest them, there’s no way you can arrest them.” It was interesting. 30\n31\nAJ: The church people were just . . . 32\n33\nSW: It was Chapel Hill which is actually a pretty liberal place. 34\n35\nAJ: A little more liberal than Charlotte or . . .? 36\n37\nSW: Oh yeah, I really should give it a lot more credit because it’s a pretty liberal place. And actually 38 the number of trans folks . . . that’s actually where I started to connect with more . . . 39 particularly more trans men. I worked at a women’s center there and we had folks come in and 40 do a lot around drag and performance. Anyway, that was the early 2000’s, so I’ve been involved 41 with that. A lot on college campuses around LGBTQ stuff, some marches and protests. I’ve 42 done a few things in Minneapolis with Black Lives Matter – marching, the Mall of American – I 43 was there. 44\n45\nAJ: What got you involved with that project? What issue drew you in, I guess? 46\n47 Stef Wilenchek Interview 15\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nSW: I think it was . . . it’s so much. The long history of learning more and more about the police 1 brutality, racial profiling, all that was happening in Ferguson. When I was at Hamline, Michelle 2 Alexander came and spoke about the new Jim Crowe, which just kind of thrusted me more on a 3 denial of really what the prison system is doing, what are policings doing in our country, and the 4 impact to, I think, Black folks in particular and anti-Blackness in our country, my own upbringing 5 and . . . so I think it kind of collides or connects with work I’ve been trying to do and do in 6 different ways. I feel grateful that there were so many amazing organizers. The church that I go 7 to has been pretty active, as least some of the leaders. I go to a Unitarian Church and speaking 8 really intensely, for about the last year or so, about racial justice and really trying to . . . it’s a 9 mostly white congregation and a mostly all-white staff. So kind of embedding it into most of the 10 sermons and trying to . . . and I know some of the church leaders and some of our church folks, 11 that’s not necessarily . . . I found out later . . . but yeah, to see what happened at MOA was just 12 horrifying, yeah – it’s still existing. So yeah, those are kind of more recent things. I’m feeling 13 like I’m missing something but . . . so some public stuff. 14\n15\nAJ: But it’s interesting that you took on this . . . a lot of your activism had been around LGBT issues 16 and then you’re supporting some of the ideas and concerns around Black Lives Matter. Is there 17 an intersection between the LGBT activism and then this sort of racial equity activism that 18 you’ve been engaging in? 19\n20\nSW: Oh yeah, I definitely feel like there is, especially in the sense of thinking about trans women of 21 color and trans lives matter and the impact that the, and I don’t know if this is the right word, 22 but the genocide or the murders that are happening all the time and that direct connection and 23 really kind of learning and understanding just how much our country, the United States, was 24 founded on racism and it feeds so much homophobia and . . . there’s just so much 25 interconnection, although experiences are different. I don’t know if it’s a stereotypical 26 statement but sort of our oppressions are all bound up with each other. I think for myself 27 individually, I think the more I understand my privilege and the racism and white supremacy I’ve 28 been taught, the better I also understand my oppressed identities and can even actually be 29 more . . . maybe have more grace, a little bit for folks. I don’t know, just to navigate how I might 30 feel liberated in different ways. But I also feel like it’s just hard even thinking about the marches 31 because they’re so important but I feel like they’re just not enough. It’s that not enough 32 messaging that’s easy to get trapped into but definitely there are places where I feel like I 33 haven’t done enough around working to dismantle racist bullshit. 34\n35\nAJ: Wow. Do you think there’s an agenda for the trans community? 36\n37\nSW: If so, I hope it involves pizza. Is there an agenda? 38\n39\nAJ: Are you a big fan of pizza? 40\n41\nSW: Actually I do, even though I’ve had to eat a lot of it working with college students and having an 42 eight-year-old who enjoys it too. Gosh, that’s a good question. I feel that there is definitely 43 amazing leaders – out trans folks, yourself included. Janet Mock, all the . . . Laverne Cox, that 44 are more and more visible that are really, I think, bringing that broader message of, I think, 45 intersectionality of really . . . you know, having to dive deeper into looking at class and race and 46 Stef Wilenchek Interview 16\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\ngender. So, in terms of who I want writing the agenda, so pretty much Andrea whatever you tell 1 me to do. I’ll try my best. 2\n3\nAJ: Well that was going to be my next question. Should there be an agenda? 4\n5\nSW: Yeah. And I think that is the challenge – who’s setting the agenda, who has access to the people 6 that are going to listen to that. In many ways I do feel like some of the mainstream 7 organizations are having to play some big catch-up and maybe even some of those that have 8 been showing up, to some degree, for trans folks – like NGLTF, and then even HRC has had a lot 9 of . . . not the organization that I tend to go to, I know, have made some efforts and attempts to 10 at least create some resources but in terms of what’s being funded and what’s being looked at, 11 there’s still just sort of this . . . like I don’t feel like those big organizations are our champions. 12 But yeah, are there a lot of mini-agendas? The folks that I’ve followed and learned . . . I would 13 be remiss in not mentioning Dean Spade, who is someone that I met early on in my career and 14 felt so lucky to meet Dean and learned a lot about myself and about LGBTQ activism and really 15 someone who I think is what I would call fiercely gentle, that can just really push some 16 messaging and do it in a way that, I think, can be received by a lot of folks. I don’t know why, 17 maybe that’s just how I’ve received Dean. But he’s also someone who has been in many 18 academic settings too, which I think he would probably maybe even challenge . . . you know, 19 what’s coming out of academia is also coming from the ivory tower of places. So . . . yeah. 20\n21\nAJ: Dean is a good friend and very much a person I look up to as well. That’s great. Man, what do 22 you think the impact of your gender nonconforming identity has been on your professional life? 23\n24\nSW: I think in some ways it maybe has given me some . . . I don’t know if it’s the right word, but 25 maybe some credibility, some access to some spaces, or some ability to do some work by sort of 26 being out and identifying as gender queer, as trans. There has also been those challenges and in 27 many ways I feel like I don’t know, like after 10 years of doing this work what . . . in many ways I 28 feel like I do this work because I’m afraid to do anything else. The fear of having to go into a 29 different environment that wasn’t sort of a given that it’s supposed to be inclusive to LGBT folks. 30 And that’s a broad statement because there’s lots of LGBT environments that are kind of . . . but 31 I think it’s still a challenge to explain to folks who I am. I was thinking about it this morning – if 32 I’m going to share something about my gender, like the time I have to spend to explain it in a 33 way that’s not always quick or easy or having to correct people. I met another person who 34 identified as gender queer and they were like, “You know what? I just don’t correct people on 35 pronouns, it’s too exhausting.” And again, that’s not true for me but I find that sometimes this 36 is not my work, it’s not that I don’t want to advocate for myself or I don’t want to educate folks 37 but I would be . . . for someone who isn’t having to do that and comes to someone who, in an 38 attempt to advocate or educate someone else, that might be the only time that day or that 39 week they had to do, whereas this could have been the tenth time in the past three hours and I 40 just don’t have the time, I need to talk about the budget. So some of that kind of professional 41 stuff. 42\n43\nAJ: Sure. Stef, what do you see the future for trans and gender non-conforming communities 44 looking like in 50 years? 45\n46\nSW: I think if things continue . . . we have doomsday and the apocalypse and . . . 47 Stef Wilenchek Interview 17\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\n1\nAJ: Eutopia. 2\n3\nSW: Eutopia – yeah. So if it goes that way . . . well, I’ll focus on the positive. I do see so much with 4 youth, as we were talking about earlier – more and more youth that are transitioning, that are 5 understanding their gender. Even my kiddo, in part because we’ve educated and he knows me 6 as a girl/boy, that’s the language that we use and he knows that there’s like gender in your head 7 and sex is your body . . . I can’t remember how he explains it, but he does it better than I do. 8 How he understands gender, he identifies as a boy, he was labeled as a boy at birth, and he’s 9 expressing his gender in different ways – he’s growing his hair out, he gets bullied a little bit 10 here and there. So anyway, there are so many youth that are growing up with a very different 11 understanding and openness to gender that I hope will allow for the galaxy, as I could call it, to 12 open up more. I think, for me, kind of removing those barriers because folks, cisgender folks 13 who are wonderful, I don’t want them into trans if they’re not, so that existence but there are so 14 many systematic barriers so if we’re able to kind of remove those things. I envision just happy, 15 healthier communities of folks and happier, more productive environments everywhere we go. 16 And hopefully more rooted and grounded understanding other issues way better as well, 17 whether it’s how we relate to the earth, how we relate to each other, other forms of 18 oppression. I have a lot of hope for new generations of folks coming into this world, it’s 19 somewhat of a spiritual belief too, that there is a lot of healers coming into the world and that’s 20 going to help us all. 21\n22\nAJ: That’s beautiful. 23\n24\nSW: Yeah, thank you. 25\n26\nAJ: I think this is going to be my last question, but you have this very unique role in that you really 27 sort of get to set the climate or you’re charged with advocating for and creating policies to 28 support lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people at the University of Minnesota-Twin 29 Cities campus. What’s your vision? 30\n31\nSW: It is a responsibility I do take very seriously and with great honor. Sorry, what was the question? 32\n33\nAJ: What’s your vision? 34\n35\nSW: Oh, what’s my vision? Yeah, I think it does actually stem from the things that I’ve learned from 36 Dean Spade and language of how do we create more trickle-up social justice, not trickle-down. 37 And so that really means how . . . and for institutions like ours, the shift is not going to be 38 overnight, it’s not going to be direct, but for me it’s looking at who in our communities are the 39 most marginalized and oppressed – and who gets to decide who that is. And I think there’s 40 some reality in how we look at intersecting identities and how do we start to turn that and 41 where are we centering our attention and our focus and our resources, how are we removing 42 barriers? I think of trans women of color, I think of youth, I think of homeless youth, I think of 43 LGBTQ folks with disabilities. There’s a lot of barriers just in higher ed in general for many folks 44 that access this campus so it’s going to take a lot of work. But how, at least within our office and 45 in the role that I’m playing in my . . . and many times, just getting out of the way and allowing 46 Stef Wilenchek Interview 18\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nthings to happen, and then in other ways where am I really direct about where we’re headed 1 and what the focus is. So that’s kind of my broader vision. 2\n3\nAJ: That’s great. Well, thank you for being willing to share a little bit about your personal life, your 4 professional life, your family life. I really appreciate it. 5\n6\nSW: It’s been an honor. 7\n8\nAJ: Thank you so much. 9\n10\nSW: Thank you – thanks for doing this. You’re going to change the world one story at a time. 11\n12\nAJ: One story at a time. 13\n14\n15", "_version_": 1710339105079951360, "type": "Moving Image", "collection": "p16022coll97", "is_compound": false, "parent_id": "14", "thumb_url": "https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1369852/thumbnail/entry_id/0_e33ki0vl", "thumb_cdn_url": "https://dkp5i0hinw9br.cloudfront.net/d6192e04a83966a2beacbb9720e9af08d6ec39af.png", "children": [ ] }