{ "id": "p16022coll97:158", "object": "https://cdm16022.contentdm.oclc.org/utils/getthumbnail/collection/p16022coll97/id/158", "set_spec": "p16022coll97", "collection_name": "Tretter Transgender Oral History Project", "collection_name_s": "Tretter Transgender Oral History Project", "collection_description": "
The Tretter Transgender Oral History Project (TTOHP) collects, preserves, and makes accessible oral histories of gender transgression, especially as theyintersect with race, age, sexuality, citizenship, class, and ability. The project seeks to document the power and vision of trans movements for justice through the stories of activists working to imagine another world.
\n\nThe first phase of the Tretter Transgender Oral History Project was led by poet and activist Andrea Jenkins—who became the first Black transgender woman to serve in office in the US after she was elected, in 2017, to the Minneapolis City Council. This phase of the project sought to document the life stories and experiences of transgender and gender non-conforming people, with a focus on people living in the upper Midwest as well as those often excluded from the historical record, including trans people of color and trans elders.
\n\nThe second phase of the Tretter Transgender Oral History Project is led by trans studies scholar Myrl Beam. This phase of work seeks to document histories of trans activist movements and politics in the US, and is grounded in the belief that trans movements for justice are about more than rights: they are about survival, and about creating a new, more fabulous, more livable, and more expansive world––one not structured by racialized gender norms. The oral histories collected during this phase document the transformative power of trans movements, and the stories of trans activists who are building them.
\n\nFor more about the project, visit: https://www.lib.umn.edu/tretter/transgender-oral-history-project.
", "title": "Interview with Nasreen Mohamed", "title_s": "Interview with Nasreen Mohamed", "title_t": "Interview with Nasreen Mohamed", "title_search": "Interview with Nasreen Mohamed", "title_sort": "interviewwithnasreenmohamed", "description": "Nasreen Mohamed is Tanzanian gender non-conforming person from the coast of Dar es Salaam. At the time of this interview, Mohamed was working in the field of post-secondary education. In this oral history, Mohamed talks about growing up in Tanzania in a Ismaili Muslim community and later studying abroad in Minnesota. Mohamed also touches upon topics such as trans politics, Orlando, their borderlands experiences, and the changes in islamophobia Mohamed experienced pre and post-9/11.", "date_created": [ "2016-06-14" ], "date_created_ss": [ "2016-06-14" ], "date_created_sort": "2016", "creator": [ "Mohamed, Nasreen" ], "creator_ss": [ "Mohamed, Nasreen" ], "creator_sort": "mohamednasreen", "contributor": [ "Jenkins, Andrea (Interviewer)" ], "contributor_ss": [ "Jenkins, Andrea (Interviewer)" ], "notes": "Forms part of the Tretter Transgender Oral History Project, Phase 1.", "types": [ "Moving Image" ], "format": [ "Oral histories | http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300202595" ], "format_name": [ "Oral histories" ], "dimensions": "1:11:35", "subject": [ "Parenthood", "Spirituality, Spiritual Life, Religion", "Family Relationships", "Sex and Love", "Friendship and Community", "Asian Pacific Islander (Api)", "Immigration", "Racism", "Nativism", "Tretter Transgender Oral History Project Phase 1" ], "subject_ss": [ "Parenthood", "Spirituality, Spiritual Life, Religion", "Family Relationships", "Sex and Love", "Friendship and Community", "Asian Pacific Islander (Api)", "Immigration", "Racism", "Nativism", "Tretter Transgender Oral History Project Phase 1" ], "language": [ "English" ], "city": [ "Minneapolis" ], "state": [ "Minnesota" ], "country": [ "United States" ], "continent": [ "North America" ], "geonames": [ "http://sws.geonames.org/5037657/" ], "parent_collection": "Tretter Transgender Oral History Project", "parent_collection_name": "Tretter Transgender Oral History Project", "contributing_organization": "University of Minnesota Libraries, Jean-Nickolaus Tretter Collection in Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Studies.", "contributing_organization_name": "University of Minnesota Libraries, Jean-Nickolaus Tretter Collection in Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Studies.", "contributing_organization_name_s": "University of Minnesota Libraries, Jean-Nickolaus Tretter Collection in Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Studies.", "contact_information": "University of Minnesota Libraries, Jean-Nickolaus Tretter Collection in Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Studies. 111 Elmer L. Andersen Library, 222 - 21st Avenue South, Minneapolis, MN 55455; https://www.lib.umn.edu/tretter", "fiscal_sponsor": "This project is funded through the generous support of The TAWANI Foundation, Headwaters Foundation and many individual donors.", "local_identifier": [ "tretter414_tohp111" ], "dls_identifier": [ "tretter414_tohp111" ], "rights_statement_uri": "http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-EDU/1.0/", "kaltura_audio": "1_ox68c14l", "kaltura_video": "1_8sjimgo4", "kaltura_combo_playlist": "0_kcjm88w6", "page_count": 0, "record_type": "primary", "first_viewer_type": "kaltura_combo_playlist", "viewer_type": "kaltura_combo_playlist", "attachment": "179.pdf", "attachment_format": "pdf", "document_type": "item", "featured_collection_order": 999, "date_added": "2018-09-24T00:00:00Z", "date_added_sort": "2018-09-24T00:00:00Z", "date_modified": "2020-05-22T00:00:00Z", "transcription": "Nasreen Mohamed\nNarrator\nAndrea Jenkins\nInterviewer\nThe Transgender Oral History Project\nTretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nJuly 23, 2015\nThe Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story,\nwhile providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source\nmaterial about the transgender community. The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the\nUniversity of Minnesota. The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for\ncurrent and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public.\nThe Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300\nindividuals over the next three years. Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and\nexperiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality. This project will be led by\nAndrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist. Andrea brings years of experience working in\ngovernment, non-profits and LGBT organizations. If you are interested in being involved in this exciting\nproject, please contact Andrea.\nAndrea Jenkins\njenki120@umn.edu\n(612) 625-4379\n1 Andrea Jenkins -AJ\n2 Nasreen Mohamed -NM\n3\n4 AJ: So, hello.\n5 NM: Hello.\n6 AJ: My name is Andrea Jenkins and I am the oral historian for the Transgender Oral History Project\n7 at the University of Minnesota Tretter Collection. Today is June 14, 2016, and I’m actually on\n8 campus at the University of Minnesota in Blegen Hall. I have the honor and pleasure today to\n9 speak with Nasreen Mohamed. Nasreen, how are you doing?\n10 NM: I’m doing good, I’m doing good.\n11 AJ: Yeah.\n12 NM: Yeah.\n13 AJ: Hey, listen. How about your spell your name for our transcriptionist and state your gender\n14 identity, your gender assigned at birth, and what pronouns do you use? Just so you know, this is\n15 the question that I ask everybody who participates in this project. And to even be more . . . we\n16 all have a gender identity, every person on the planet, we all have an assigned gender at birth,\n17 and so . . .\n18 NM: All right, thank you, Andrea, for sort of inviting me to be part of the project. So, my name is\n19 Nasreen Mohamed, N-a-s-r-e-e-n, and last name, Mohamed, M-o-h-a-m-e-d. My gender\n20 assigned at birth is female. How I identify is really on a spectrum. What I think about myself is\n21 I’m gender non-conforming and really more towards male and I feel, in terms of gender\n22 pronouns, I have felt more comfortable sort of being referred by my name, first and foremost.\n23 AJ: Nasreen.\n24 NM: As much as possible and so lately, sometimes that’s uncomfortable for folks, but I answer to\n25 both him and her. I kind of sort of feel uncomfortable with she and so, essentially, I really . . . I\n26 am really in-between. So, that’s kind of my, sort of, story around always being sort of in-27\nbetween – in-between worlds.\n28 AJ: That’s fascinating. So, uncomfortable with her but not quite comfortable with he and him\n29 either, right?\n30 NM: Yeah, probably more comfortable with he and him more so. So, I think kind of leaning towards .\n31 . .\n32 AJ: How do you feel about the pronoun they? That’s been a thing I’ve been noticing lately.\n33 NM: I know, and I’ve started using they. Again, it just kind of doesn’t feel like it fits me.\n34 AJ: All right, OK.\n35 NM: It’s sort of in-between, but leaning. So, I don’t want to complicate things but that’s how it’s\n36 been and living in complexity has defined my life.\nNasreen Mohamed 4\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nAJ: Wow, that’s fascinating. I hope we can get at some of that this afternoon 1 as we continue to\n2 chat. Nasreen, tell me what’s the earliest memory you have? What’s the first thing you\n3 remember in life? It doesn’t have to have anything to do with gender at all.\n4 NM: Wow, that’s a really good question. Oh, my God. I don’t have a really poignant earliest\n5 memory, I have a collage of memories.\n6 AJ: OK, that’s fine – yeah. You’re an artist so having a collage of memories makes sense.\n7 NM: Yeah, a collage of memories. The one thing that I most . . . so, I grew up in Tanzania, East Africa,\n8 and I’m South Asian descent. So, one of my most beautiful memories is swimming in the ocean\n9 early, early in the morning. And, it was when the tide was coming in and the ocean was\n10 relatively calm so there were no big waves, it was just . . . and you could see the bottom of the\n11 ocean, it was the Indian Ocean, because I grew up on the coast of Dar es Salaam. So, that’s\n12 been my sort of . . . maybe I could say a grounding memory.\n13 AJ: Really, wow. Some people never make it to an ocean in their entire lives and that’s one of your\n14 earliest memories.\n15 NM: Yes, yes. I find the ocean sort of this place of complete freedom. When I go to the ocean I\n16 spend most of my time in the water.\n17 AJ: In the water – so you’re not a beach . . . you don’t lay on the beach.\n18 NM: No. I really . . .\n19 AJ: You’re in the water.\n20 NM: I am in the water.\n21 AJ: Have you ever been back to the Indian Ocean?\n22 NM: Yes, actually three . . . yeah, about three years ago.\n23 AJ: Is that right?\n24 NM: Yeah. Yeah, so I came sort of after . . . around 22 years of being in the U.S., I went back. It was a\n25 phenomenal trip in a lot of ways. Yeah, and it was really kind of sort of a homecoming for me\n26 after being gone.\n27 AJ: So, did you grow up in Tanzania?\n28 NM: Yes. So, I grew up in Tanzania until I was 19. I grew up in a community, a South Asian\n29 community. It was a very specific religious community called Ismaili Muslims.\n30 AJ: Say that again, please.\n31 NM: Ismaili Muslims.\n32 AJ: Ismaili? Can you spell that? I know my transcriptionist is going to ask me how to spell it and I’m\n33 going to be like, “I don’t know!”.\nNasreen Mohamed 5\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nNM: I-s-m-a-i-l-i. So, I usually define . . . it’s part of the Shia sect. I usually define 1 Ismaili Muslims as\n2 the Unitarians of the Muslim world.\n3 AJ: Really? That’s a great description.\n4 NM: So, we are more westernized, we don’t have any dress codes and sometimes we’re not regarded\n5 as real Muslims.\n6 AJ: Oh, boy. Oh, wow – OK.\n7 NM: So, we have a leader called the Aga Khan, so people can do research on him. So, that’s the . . .\n8 AJ: The Aga Khan?\n9 NM: Yeah, the Aga Khan.\n10 AJ: A . . .\n11 NM: A-g-a K-h-a-n.\n12 AJ: Aga Khan, just like it sounds.\n13 NM: Yeah, yeah.\n14 AJ: Is that equivalent to an imam?\n15 NM: Yes, equivalent to an imam. The doctrine is that he is the living descendent of the Prophet\n16 Muhammad.\n17 AJ: Oh, OK.\n18 NM: So, in a lot of ways that’s why the tension with the other Muslim sects is – that no, that’s not\n19 true. So, there is a lot of tensions. He also was instrumental in kind of influencing gender and\n20 education roles, the role of education for women. So, there are some things that were really\n21 good – he’s a Capitalist.\n22 AJ: Is that . . . so, is the religious culture supportive of women’s education?\n23 NM: Yes, yes. And, he has a foundation that is set up to give scholarships to people throughout the\n24 word. He has done some really amazing projects. The whole community kind of contributes,\n25 but yeah – there have been projects all over.\n26 AJ: So, the Aga Khan is a real person?\n27 NM: Yes, it is a real person.\n28 AJ: He can’t live forever.\n29 NM: He has a next of kin who then . . .\n30 AJ: Becomes the Aga Khan.\n31 NM: Yeah, becomes the next imam. I think his oldest is a daughter, so we’ll have to see what\n32 happens.\nNasreen Mohamed 6\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nAJ: What happens when he passes on. So, I’m just curious, were you bullied at all 1 for having being a\n2 part of sort of an off-shoot faith?\n3 NM: No, I think . . . no, I don’t remember being bullied. Growing up Tanzania, it’s sort of a\n4 multicultural . . . in a lot of ways, there are Hindus, Muslims, and indigenous Africans, indigenous\n5 Tanzanians. And so, I’m not painting a rosy picture . . . there were tensions, of course, there\n6 were always tensions.\n7 AJ: Were there Christians?\n8 NM: And Christians. We were colonized by the British – you know, they messed us all up.\n9 AJ: Colonization is real.\n10 NM: Yes. So, there was not really . . . I did not experience bullying in school.\n11 AJ: Around any issues at all?\n12 NM: Actually around . . . maybe on a level around my South Asian identity, like people made fun of\n13 me. My family was very strong around making sure that we went to government schools where\n14 it was predominantly indigenous Tanzanian students – so Black students. So, I was essentially\n15 the . . .\n16 AJ: You were the minority.\n17 NM: I was the minority, right. So, there was a little bit of that but I don’t think it was ever to the\n18 point where I couldn’t function or where that was a daily banter.\n19 AJ: You stood out but it was not . . .\n20 NM: It was not a big deal. I mean, if there was any stressor it was around the competition – the\n21 intense academic competition.\n22 AJ: Really? Wow.\n23 NM: Yeah, there was a lot of pressure to perform academically. And so, that was hard.\n24 AJ: From your parents or from the teachers?\n25 NM: Everyone.\n26 AJ: From everybody – high expectations on you guys.\n27 NM: High. And we had a rank, so you were ranked. So, it didn’t matter – it’s not about just getting\n28 A’s, it’s by how much. And, it’s pretty public what your rank is in school.\n29 AJ: Really? Yikes.\n30 NM: And it could be out of 120 students, it could be . . . and so, I remember sort of really struggling a\n31 lot of times because the rank really . . . it was a stressor.\n32 AJ: I can imagine.\nNasreen Mohamed 7\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nNM: After many, many years looking at my report cards . . . so, I always thought I 1 was not that great\n2 of a student, I looked at my report card and I was like, “I was an OK student.” So, that’s kind of a\n3 fun thing of what you would think of how you performed.\n4 AJ: So, what was your gender identity like in grade school?\n5 NM: You know, so I can tell you my earliest memory of growing up in my family was I identified as a\n6 boy – and the great thing about my mom, in particular, never corrected my gender pronouns.\n7 AJ: So, like a tomboy or . . .?\n8 NM: Yeah, but I personally believed I was a boy.\n9 AJ: Right, OK. So, more than a tomboy – not like you just ran around and climbed trees.\n10 NM: Yes. And, I mean, even though I sort of knew, the only time they would make me wear a dress\n11 was to go to the mosque and I would throw a fit.\n12 AJ: Really? You hated it.\n13 NM: I hated it. They would try their best to . . . and actually that happened towards the later part\n14 when I started maturing, then I couldn’t really pass, but actually even in the mosque, I would go\n15 and sit with my brother, with the male side.\n16 AJ: Really? And that’s not necessarily acceptable, is it?\n17 NM: Yeah, but I think I passed and people didn’t know. Yeah. And so, one of the things, when\n18 thinking about the interview, my earliest memory was when I realized like, “Oh, my God.” I was\n19 probably six or seven, and we were on this big, huge, extended family picnic and it was kind of a\n20 hike in this area, region, of Tanzania where I actually was born. And my two aunts . . . so, there\n21 was a whole gob of people walking, my two aunts actually pulled me back and I remember that\n22 distinctly. They were trying to take off my clothes and I fought them off. They were actually\n23 trying to figure out what my gender was.\n24 AJ: Your aunts?\n25 NM: Ye, and it was bizarre. I had to really fight them off.\n26 AJ: Your mother’s sisters or your . . .?\n27 NM: These were aunts, almost like my mom’s cousins – so they were like second cousins.\n28 AJ: Right.\n29 NM: A little bit removed.\n30 AJ: So, they hadn’t grown up with you or hadn’t seen you from changing your diapers or that kind of\n31 stuff.\n32 NM: Yeah, so it was really bizarre. I have never talked about that, that was my most painful . . .\n33 AJ: But, they were confused – your family members.\nNasreen Mohamed 8\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nNM: They were confused and they pulled me back in the sense that other people 1 didn’t notice. So, it\n2 was still done in private, like on this hike and on this path, but I never told anybody.\n3 AJ: Wow.\n4 NM: It felt bizarre.\n5 AJ: Yeah, I can imagine. A) the confusion of just being . . .\n6 NM: And the violation.\n7 AJ: Right, of being pulled backed and then the violation, but then also my aunts don’t know my\n8 gender – what does that mean? I don’t know.\n9 NM: So, I actually didn’t really . . . and there were occasions where I would wear dresses but really,\n10 my gender identity was male.\n11 AJ: Wow.\n12 NM: Yeah, and I was comfortable with it. I think . . . and because of how we didn’t do any education\n13 around periods, right, I think that was when . . . when I got my period, I didn’t know what the\n14 hell was going on. I mean, that was the other piece of it – I had no idea. I thought I was dying\n15 until I told my mom and then she gave me this really shortened version of what that meant. She\n16 was like, “Now you’re a woman and you’ve got to be careful with boys.” I think that . . . I think\n17 that point was my devastation around my gender – I think that was painful beyond . . . it was like\n18 the turning point of feeling empowered and being in my body as free as possible, and then being\n19 told this other piece around . . . that was counter to my reality and my frame. But, I persisted in\n20 defying. I continued wearing . . . the only time where I didn’t wear shorts or male clothing was\n21 when I went to school because we were required to wear a skirt.\n22 AJ: Uniforms, OK.\n23 NM: Yes – yeah. So, that was . . . and that kind of persisted throughout until towards my teenage\n24 years. That’s another very personal part around my family was there was domestic violence and\n25 I was, essentially, kicked out of my house and went to live with another family.\n26 AJ: Really?\n27 NM: Yeah, and then that’s where the conforming happened, the forced confirmation of having to\n28 participate, you know, who I was and so then it was . . . you know, because of the stresses. So, I\n29 had long hair and . . .\n30 AJ: I’m having a hard time imagining that vision, Nasreen, but I imagine it absolutely did exist.\n31 NM: Yeah, and then it continued until I sort of . . . until I came to the U.S. As time went on, I sort of\n32 came out and . . .\n33 AJ: You came out as . . .?\n34 NM: As lesbian.\n35 AJ: OK.\nNasreen Mohamed 9\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nNM: And so, that was 1 another shift for me.\n2 AJ: So, when you came out as lesbian, was there sort of a . . . I mean, did you have any kind of labels\n3 around that or any sort of identity like a femme or a butch lesbian or a stone butch lesbian or\n4 diesel dyke?\n5 NM: I had long hair when I came out. I didn’t identify, I was just me.\n6 AJ: Right, exactly.\n7 NM: But I kind of sort of started beginning to feel like I was not feeling comfortable in my body, the\n8 way I was presenting myself.\n9 AJ: Really?\n10 NM: Yeah, so it started shifting again and I decided, after a while, to just cut off my hair. I was . . .\n11 actually, even though I had long hair, I was still predominantly dressed like how I am dressed.\n12 AJ: Really?\n13 NM: Yeah, I don’t remember wearing a dress during that time. Yeah, the only time, I think, probably\n14 my Indian outfit was probably the closest feminine thing that I . . .\n15 AJ: Like a sari or . . .\n16 NM: Not even a sari. It was a salwar kameez, which is pants kind of and a long . . .\n17 AJ: Long tunic.\n18 NM: Yeah, tunic.\n19 AJ: So, how do you say that phrase again?\n20 NM: Salwar, s-a-l-w-a-r and kameez is k-a-m-e-e-z.\n21 AJ: Salwar kameez. So, you came out as a lesbian. What made you come to the United States?\n22 NM: I was on a student visa. My brother used to live here, he sponsored me. He kind of knew how\n23 bad the situation at home was. So, South Asians in East Africa are always in a politically\n24 precarious position, they were always the middle people. And so, there is a history of . . . with\n25 Idi Amin in Uganda, he kicked out all the South Asians in the 1970s. I think that fear of being\n26 kicked out of your own country always persisted. So, there is a migration of South Asians in the\n27 1970s, 1980s, and continuing in 1990s and continuing until today, there’s always this thing\n28 where people want to go to the west. Right, they want to live in the west. During election time,\n29 South Asians are scapegoated – a lot.\n30 AJ: Right.\n31 NM: You know, some of it is set up because of British colonial times. They were pitted against\n32 Africans in this way that created these divisions that still persist.\n33 AJ: So, you were anxious to get to the west?\nNasreen Mohamed 10\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nNM: Yes, anxious – and I was on an adventure. I mean, 1 part of it was . . .\n2 AJ: Did you come directly to Minnesota?\n3 NM: Yes. I was . . . partly because I knew I wouldn’t survive back home. I knew I was queer and I\n4 knew I wouldn’t survive. If I wouldn’t have been able to come here, I don’t know what would\n5 have happened to me – in a lot of ways. I would have . . . I’m not sure.\n6 AJ: Wow, well it’s good you made it.\n7 NM: Yes, yes.\n8 AJ: So, you got here in Minnesota – sort of the liberal bastion of clearness.\n9 NM: Yeah, the land of where are you from questions.\n10 AJ: Right, exactly. Say more about that – do you get that question a lot?\n11 NM: Yeah. I mean . . . yes, I think I still do. As much as I resisted, I still do. It’s a question of not ever\n12 belonging fully in a place. So, you know, I think about home as being in-between worlds, even\n13 with my gender – my identity. I’m South Asian, but sort of never been to India. I’m Tanzanian,\n14 but never quite fully Tanzanian.\n15 AJ: Right.\n16 NM: So, it’s always this in-between world of negotiating the space – which is both a gift and also\n17 sometimes a point of sort of figuring out community and belonging, this tension always exists\n18 for me.\n19 AJ: Yeah, I’m fascinated right now.\n20 NM: It’s a point of grief and also a point . . . like a gift, being able to see things in complexity, in\n21 multiple frames, in different colors that you would not . . . and I don’t mean color in terms of\n22 race, but it is really taking into the world . . .\n23 AJ: A kaleidoscope or . . .\n24 NM: Yes, kaleidoscope is probably the thing that I would say, but also a gift of empathy – a gift of\n25 being able to see . . . being able to really see myself and others more easily and less rooted in\n26 dogmatic ways of, “This is the right thing.” So . . .\n27 AJ: Wow. So, sort of geographically there is this sense of in-between-ness, but also related to your\n28 gender identity. And, even the geographic piece is at home, at “home” (I’m doing air quotes\n29 now), and here in the States, so it is . . . you’ve always had this sort of in-between existence,\n30 throughout your entire life. How do you process that, Nasreen? Does it make it hard for you to\n31 be in relationship with people?\n32 NM: No, I mean, I think . . . I sometimes see myself as being able to, in a way, be part of community,\n33 but also be grounded. So, in terms of . . . like I really believe that it’s important to be grounded\n34 in my identity and even if that identity is as complex as mine, right – even religion-wise, as\n35 Muslim . . .\nNasreen Mohamed 11\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nAJ: Right, that’s the other thing I 1 was thinking about.\n2 NM: So, it’s like all over the place. It’s like this borderline place and I am the borderlines of many\n3 things. You know, I think as I sort of grow older in age, I think it’s becoming more and more\n4 apparent around how to build connection and community. So, people of color are my\n5 community, that’s where I’m rooted politically. But also, I’m sort of kind of going back to my\n6 really core pieces of all of my communities – my African side, my South Asian side, and my\n7 Muslim side. Those are all three pieces and in terms of gender, I am who I am in all those\n8 spaces, maybe that’s probably the consistent thing. Even if it doesn’t make sense for people, it\n9 makes sense to me. So, I think in relation to community, and in relation to building connections,\n10 that’s where I’m at. And being transparent. I can’t claim blackness, but I am Tanzanian to the\n11 core.\n12 AJ: Absolutely, you’re an African.\n13 NM: Yes, yes. But, I have to be cognizant of that too, and conscious. I claim all of it. So, I think it is\n14 about . . .\n15 AJ: In many ways, you could be called an African American.\n16 NM: Yeah, that’s right . . . that’s right, that’s right. Yeah.\n17 AJ: I’m just stating the obvious, but it’s true.\n18 NM: Yeah.\n19 AJ: So, your gender appearance could be perceived by some folks as . . . I don’t know, confusing.\n20 Has that created any challenges for you? Not only is your appearance, but your gender\n21 expression, your gender emotions that you emote out to people . . . it’s very masculine. You\n22 give off a very masculine image. Has that created any challenges for you?\n23 NM: I think . . . I mean . . .\n24 AJ: Have you ever been kicked out of a bathroom?\n25 NM: Mmmm, I’ve been given looks. I think I have . . . I’ve been given looks but I’ve never\n26 experienced, and maybe I’m oblivious – that could be. I mean, I think I’ve been given looks and I\n27 think it hasn’t served me well professionally. I think there has been . . . you know, transphobia\n28 directed towards me in terms of moving up.\n29 AJ: Really?\n30 NM: I believe so. I think it’s not just necessarily homophobia, I think it’s particularly the way I appear\n31 and present. I think in that way. What’s been, actually, really important is my extended family\n32 has actually been very accepting of me. So, I have extended family in Toronto because, as I\n33 talked about, this migration.\n34 AJ: Right.\n35 NM: And, I have extended family in Tanzania. I’m out to them and the same family I lived with as a\n36 teenager, there was a lot of conforming happening many years back, but also, they totally\nNasreen Mohamed 12\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\naccept me as who I am fully. And, in terms of kind of my queerness, my sexuality, 1 I have not\n2 faced judgment or alienation from my family, which is a very different experience than a lot of\n3 people have had. So, I feel really lucky in a lot of ways. However, I can also say with a caveat, is\n4 that I don’t exist on a day-to-day basis with my extended family and back home. I think if I were,\n5 right now, to go on an extended six-month visit back home, I think I would be experiencing . . . I\n6 would be exposed to it a little different experience.\n7 AJ: Nasreen, as you know, we’re sitting here today and it’s a very painful day in American history.\n8 Over the weekend, in Orlando, Florida, 49 people were murdered, shot down; 53 more people\n9 injured by what some people are calling a Muslim extremist. Some people are suggesting that it\n10 may have been some sort of blatant homo . . .\n11 NM: Internalized homophobia.\n12 AJ: Yeah. Whatever the case is though, many, many of the people who were murdered were Black\n13 and brown, queer, LGBT-identified people. How are you processing that as a queer-identified\n14 sort of gender non-conforming Muslim person? What are some of your thoughts?\n15 NM: Yeah, I mean, I think I was talking to you before the interview . . .\n16 AJ: And, I know it’s really hard to . . .\n17 NM: Yeah, I think it’s hard to encapsulate, the pain that I feel is deep. I think sometimes in a lot of\n18 ways we build a certain amount of self-protection in our minds, psychically, in order to really\n19 survive the world. So, you have to really create psychological head space in order to be able to\n20 not feel that you are a target continually, right.\n21 AJ: Right.\n22 NM: Even your previous question, when I said I was oblivious – I feel that I have to. It’s not like I\n23 don’t . . . I see injustices all around, but how do I take that in and how do I . . .\n24 AJ: Personalize it or internalize it.\n25 NM: Yeah, and sometimes it’s harder to see for myself and realize that I am the target. I can be in\n26 protection of others, but when it comes down to it, I have to really face the fact that I am the\n27 target on multiple levels – and have been the target. You know, post-9/11 . . . the other thing\n28 that . . . I mean, this is pre-9/11 because of violence in my family and my dad cut off my tuition\n29 so I couldn’t go to school anymore. And so, I had to violate my student visa and was\n30 undocumented for four years.\n31 AJ: Oh, wow.\n32 NM: So, for a portion of those four years, and I was lucky enough to be with someone who supported\n33 me, I cleaned houses for a living. And then 9/11 happened, and that just completely changed\n34 everything. There was a lot of anti-immigrant stuff happening during that period of time – prior\n35 to 9/11, so this is looking prior to 9/11. There was still a lot of hatred and actually, on a regular\n36 basis, I would be catching the bus and I would be told, continually, “Go back to where you came\nNasreen Mohamed 13\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nfrom, you’re taking our jobs.” That was the predominant sort of narrative, 1 as a person who was\n2 using public transportation at that time.\n3 AJ: And this was pre-9/11.\n4 NM: This was pre-9/11. So, I was always a target, an identifiable immigrant, right. And then 9/11\n5 happened, and I remember . . . I wrote this piece on Islamophobia, kind of sort of post-9/11 . . .\n6 my experience at 9/11 and now – they are similar, to a T, at times.\n7 AJ: When you say the T, you mean the transgender community or what are you . . .?\n8 NM: I mean, like really very similar in terms of the experience.\n9 AJ: OK, so to the T.\n10 NM: To the T, sorry.\n11 AJ: Yes.\n12 NM: So, what was the question, I forgot. Sorry. Oh, about the intensity of Orlando.\n13 AJ: Yeah, this moment. The fact that it was a Muslim man who did the shootings.\n14 NM: I think part of this was . . . as I said, this kind of being in-between and figuring out, but my\n15 Muslim identity is both political and cultural. I think, for me – and my queerness, both of my\n16 identities are a source of my freedom.\n17 AJ: Wow, that’s a powerful statement.\n18 NM: Yeah, and those fuel who I am and so I think with Orlando, I feel intense grief. I feel intense\n19 grief for the lives lost and there were brown people who were really experiencing this moment\n20 of freedom that we take for granted in that particular space. So, I think it’s complex and I still\n21 haven’t fully really got myself to a point of really absorbing the depth of what this means.\n22 AJ: Yeah, completely understandable. You talk about being in all of these sort of in-between states\n23 and it sounds, in many ways, like you have come to a place of reconciliation, but I’m only\n24 speculating. Have you ever had any thoughts or do you think about in the future, potentially,\n25 transitioning to male?\n26 NM: I mean, I’ve thought about it. I’ve thought about it. I’ve begun to kind of ask questions, because\n27 what I didn’t want to do . . . for me, it was really important, there was a period of time when I\n28 remember distinctively when Leslie Feinburg visited the campus and . . .\n29 AJ: Yeah, I introduced Leslie when they were here.\n30 NM: That’s right. It was a moment of affirmation and it was a moment of affirmation for me, as well.\n31 So, from that time until now, sort of on and off I have thought about it but I’ve never kind of\n32 quite figured out whether that’s the right thing for me.\n33 AJ: Sure.\nNasreen Mohamed 14\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nNM: I think I live in complexity and I think I challenge people at times. I cause confusion 1 and I think . .\n2 . I have never conformed to anything so even though, I think, in a lot of ways people on\n3 Facebook, because I still . . . you know, when my profile changes and it says, “He has changed,”\n4 people are like, “What gender pronouns . . .?” So, there is a cause of panic, but I want to do\n5 things that feel right to me. And, I also want to resist . . . I want to continue to wait, not wait\n6 before to ask but thinking about there is something coming up in terms of gender that we still\n7 don’t know about.\n8 AJ: Andrea is in the background fist pumping and going, “Yeah, yeah.”\n9 NM: Right, because this binary piece also kind of holds us back and we’ve just started talking about\n10 how there is multiplicity of genders.\n11 AJ: Absolutely.\n12 NM: And, so I am looking to see for myself what discoveries I make and what other people and what\n13 community makes in order to feel like, “OK,” like not having to . . . one thing in the U.S., we are\n14 so tied to definitions and we relate to people via these definitions and that is incredibly limiting\n15 at times because we are always thinking about efficiency and short cuts, but relationships are\n16 not about efficiency and short cuts, they are about . . . they are about struggle, they are about\n17 the murkiness of being in connection with each other. And to persist through that murkiness,\n18 we have to understand each other, we have to be in conversation, we have to be in conflict. To\n19 deepen our relationships, you have to disagree otherwise you will never really truly love each\n20 other fully.\n21 AJ: Oh, my goodness – wow, that was incredible. Listen, I mean, you asked me earlier should I -\n22 quote, meaning yourself, “ . . . be a part of this project?” And, my response was, “Absolutely,\n23 because we are challenging, exploding, this concept of gender and binary.” And this project has\n24 never been about trying to perpetuate a binary system. So, I’m thrilled that you’re here, I’m\n25 thrilled that you’re sharing. Talk to me about your love life – you identify as queer. Who do you\n26 date? Who are you pursuing? Are you in a relationship?\n27 NM: I am single at the moment. I have dated some beautiful women.\n28 AJ: OK.\n29 NM: But single at the moment – yes, yes.\n30 AJ: You have children in your life.\n31 NM: Yes, I do – yes. I have two children, two adopted children, Black kids.\n32 AJ: OK.\n33 NM: And, so that’s another place of . . .\n34 AJ: That’s a whole other state of in-between-ness.\n35 NM: A state of in-between-ness, my parenthood. I have two kids, Larry and Lorraine.\n36 AJ: Are they twins?\nNasreen Mohamed 15\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nNM: No, they’re a sibling group. I, and my co-parenting partner, adopted 1 them through Ramsey\n2 County. We always wanted to adopt older kids and so when we adopted them they were five\n3 and nine, and now one is 18 and one is 15.\n4 AJ: Wow.\n5 NM: So, we are going through the teenage . . .\n6 AJ: Did you guys just have a high school graduation or is there one coming up pretty soon?\n7 NM: Yes, yes.\n8 AJ: Good – good, good, good. So, they’re on the path.\n9 NM: They’re on the path, they’re on the path. They are both a joy and a lot of work.\n10 AJ: Have you ever dated men?\n11 NM: No, never. I mean, yeah . . . no, never.\n12 AJ: Not even in grade school or high school?\n13 NM: No.\n14 AJ: Wow. OK. All right, so you’re definitely pretty clear about who you want to sleep with then.\n15 NM: Yes, but who knows.\n16 AJ: No in-between-ness going on there.\n17 NM: Yeah, who knows though.\n18 AJ: You’re open.\n19 NM: Yeah, who knows. You never know, love happens, right?\n20 AJ: Love happens, it is true. I’ve experienced love happening.\n21 NM: Yeah, so you never know.\n22 AJ: In places that I never thought it would. Oh, man, wow. What do you think the relationship is . . .\n23 I know that you don’t necessarily identify as transgender, but I feel like, Nasreen . . . and you’ve\n24 alluded to this, and even stated it, that sometimes people put that label on you and you can\n25 control how you see yourself and how you present yourself, but you really can’t control how\n26 other people see you. And so, with people putting that label on you, I would imagine that it has\n27 given you some sense of awareness and maybe, even potentially, some solidarity with the\n28 transgender community. And, even in our conversations, you have indicated as much.\n29 NM: Yeah.\n30 AJ: And so, I’m wondering what do you think the relationship is between the broader LGB\n31 community and the transgender community?\n32 NM: What is the relationship?\nNasreen Mohamed 16\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nAJ: Do you see the issues as being 1 the same or . . .?\n2 NM: OK, so, I think, for me, I have never, in terms of being queer, I’ve never identified myself as\n3 fighting for marriage equality, which has been the predominant issue.\n4 AJ: Right, the rallying cry.\n5 NM: Because I don’t believe in marriage, this notion of marriage.\n6 AJ: OK.\n7 NM: It’s a patriarchal institution.\n8 AJ: Absolutely.\n9 NM: And, if people want to live together and have kids and have no sexual relationship, then they\n10 should be able to marry or commit to each other or whatever.\n11 AJ: Right, exactly.\n12 NM: And so, for me, I don’t . . . and also, it’s really . . . it’s always this conforming to be mainstream,\n13 to be accepted. That’s the piece I’ve always been . . . I’ve resisted, right. But, I think trans\n14 movement is really living in that intersectionality in a true and pure sense, right. The trans\n15 politics that I’m exposed to, I’m sure there’s conservative elements . . .\n16 AJ: There are.\n17 NM: But, the trans politics I’m exposed to really require you to think and dig deeper around really\n18 looking at our agenda as being a human rights agenda. So, we are talking about . . . not like\n19 Obama’s speech that you mentioned earlier, it’s really talking about what is it . . . how can we\n20 envision a just society. And so, it’s important to talk about Black Lives Matter, it’s important to\n21 talk about the Dreamers, it’s important to talk about all of these things, and it’s important, also,\n22 to resist the institution of marriage – period.\n23 AJ: Wow.\n24 NM: Right?\n25 AJ: Yes.\n26 NM: And all of this . . . so, we can’t really . . . for me, when I think about myself as being part of the\n27 queer community, I am really part of the queer people of color community that is grounded in\n28 social justice. That’s the community I feel like I belong to and I don’t want to be adopted into\n29 the larger community because that’s the politic that really defines me and has influenced me.\n30 AJ: Wow. You’re exploding, you’re just exploding this whole concept of gender and gender\n31 conformity and gender identity. Where do you see gender in the next 50 years?\n32 NM: That’s a deep question. I think I see it essentially, hopefully . . . I can’t say it, but hopefully a\n33 non-issue. Hopefully, a non-issue, but 50 years feels kind of a short time for change.\n34 AJ: Yeah, well lots of change in the queer community in the last 50 years.\nNasreen Mohamed 17\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nNM: Yeah, yeah – that’s true. So, I think as . . . now, do I think that there . . . gender 1 is a non-issue, no\n2 – I’ll take that back. No, we have to address issues around . . . I don’t know. I’m not sure about\n3 that. I just said hopeful, but I was thinking in a very narrow context for the queer community.\n4 AJ: Yeah.\n5 NM: I mean, in terms of gender equality, in terms of sexism . . .\n6 AJ: Yes.\n7 NM: That, I’m not sure about, but in terms of identity and acceptance, social acceptance, there might\n8 be more social acceptance but I don’t know whether we both have . . . and I’m thinking in the\n9 U.S. context, and when you broaden it to the world, I’m not sure about that in a global sense.\n10 But, I think anything is possible. I think in times when there is a spike of violence, which is\n11 happening – an intense spike of violence targeted at trans people, I think there is also sort of an\n12 awakening, unfortunately that it takes that to wake us up.\n13 AJ: Open our eyes, yeah.\n14 NM: Open up our eyes to these inequities, but I think we’re beginning to talk about that there are\n15 many places around the world where there is a history of trans people being part of the\n16 community equally. So, in Native communities that has been true.\n17 AJ: Absolutely, yes.\n18 NM: And so, there are other places around the world as well, but they were interrupted by\n19 colonialism and imperialism. Right? And so, there could be, if we are to be hopeful, there could\n20 be a return of that.\n21 AJ: Yeah. Nasreen, have you ever worked for or volunteered in any LGBT organizations?\n22 NM: Let’s see, I was part of PFund, I was on the board of directors there for three years during a time\n23 where it was entirely white.\n24 AJ: Yes.\n25 NM: And, I think it was me, Roderic Southall, Donald Whipple Fox, I think the three people of color on\n26 that board.\n27 AJ: Oh, wow.\n28 NM: And Kit Briem was the Executive Director and there was somebody else who was a big . . . a very\n29 big ally. We started the Communities of Color Endowment Fund and so . . . yeah.\n30 AJ: That was after I left.\n31 NM: Yeah, so it was very exciting at that time to galvanize. It was not the most pretty in terms of\n32 pushing, but we figured out if you put money, I think, somehow or another it changes the\n33 conversation if you bring in money, and I did bring in money. So, that changed and shifted the\n34 conversation.\n35 AJ: That was cool.\nNasreen Mohamed 18\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nNM: And then I was on the Funding Exchange Board and I think that’s also 1 where we kind of\n2 connected, right?\n3 AJ: Yes, exactly.\n4 NM: I was on the People of Color Panel and you were on the Out Fund Panel, but we, of course . . .\n5 AJ: Colluded.\n6 NM: We colluded and I was, particularly, interested in the People of Color Panel because I wanted to\n7 give it a queer flair.\n8 AJ: Absolutely.\n9 NM: But, we colluded.\n10 AJ: And I wanted to be on the Out Fund Panel so I could give it a person of color, trans woman of\n11 color flair.\n12 NM: Yes. So, those have been the two places – and Vulva Riot, I was part of Vulva Riot with Eleanor\n13 Savage. So, you know, did . . . I sort of was part of the folks who put together and worked the\n14 shows. That was a really good space and it evolved with time. And, Asian-Pacific – oh, my God,\n15 how could I forget this. In the 1990s, I was part of the Asian-Pacific Lesbian and Bisexual\n16 organization in the Twin Cities.\n17 AJ: Really?\n18 NM: And then we also had a South Asian group.\n19 AJ: What was it called? I’m not even sure if I knew that existed.\n20 NM: Yeah, APLBs existed and it was actually a really special time where all these groups started\n21 coming up, POC groups, right.\n22 AJ: Exactly.\n23 NM: There was the Latino group, Voces de Ambiente, Bad Black African American Dykes, and let’s see\n24 . . . APLBs, Asian-Pacific Islander Lesbian Bisexual Network, was the South Asian group that I was a\n25 part of.\n26 AJ: All right, you know you’ve got to spell that one.\n27 NM: And Two Spirits.\n28 AJ: And Two Spirit Society – yeah.\n29 NM: And I talk about this fondly because I think it was a special time because even though those\n30 groups and spaces existed separately, they did come together to support one another. I\n31 remember doing fund raisers for the Two Spirit group to go to the Two Spirit national gathering.\n32 So, there was a lot of back and forth and . . .\n33 AJ: Co-organizing.\nNasreen Mohamed 19\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nNM: Yeah, coalition building that was different than . . . I have yet to kind of 1 see it as much because I\n2 think we’ve evolved in terms of how we identify. But, I think those cultural . . .\n3 AJ: And, so many of those people of color have been sort of subsumed into predominantly white\n4 spaces.\n5 NM: Yes. But, the artistic space sort of . . . I mean, we exist in art spaces as well.\n6 AJ: Wow. Man, you’ve been pretty politically active as a queer-identified brown person. I mean,\n7 that’s . . . sometimes that’s a very difficult place to be. You alluded to it a little bit when you\n8 were talking about the work that you were doing at PFund, but how do you navigate those\n9 spaces?\n10 NM: It’s interesting, the navigation . . . and I do it at work as well.\n11 AJ: OK – yes.\n12 NM: I worked at the GLBT Programs office that I totally forgot about.\n13 AJ: Duh. Here at the U, right?\n14 NM: Yeah, yeah. I worked with Beth Zemsky.\n15 AJ: Oh, wow.\n16 NM: So, I think I have always been sort of a person who navigates and figures out how to build\n17 bridges and sometimes doing a lot of education. So, in terms of right now in my work place,\n18 really bringing equity and diversity issues to the forefront. On campus, being part of campus\n19 climate work that is . . . I mean, really pushing around international students’ visibility as well\n20 because their experience with campus climate in the past three years have been declining –\n21 their satisfaction has been declining and, on some measures, even worse than students of color\n22 who normally get the brunt. And so, I’m not trying to say both of those experiences are the\n23 same because they’re different, however, there is an invisibility to the issues that are faced by\n24 international students.\n25 AJ: Right.\n26 NM: Because there is an assumption that all of them are rich and they’re coming here, but there is\n27 diversity. Yes, there are the rich, there are some rich kids.\n28 AJ: Yes, but even within that, an 18-year-old going to a whole other country, I mean there’s a level\n29 of anxiety and just vulnerability that comes along with that as well.\n30 NM: Yes. So, I’ve been really vocal in pushing some of the issues in our campus climate larger group\n31 conversation, but always talking about other issues as well around disability, or always pushing\n32 around looking at what is absent in the room and what is absent in policies so that we are not\n33 creating these blind spots. My work really has been to really kind of articulate and push. So,\n34 really that’s been part of my role.\n35 AJ: Wow, well this has just been a fascinating discussion, Nasreen. I’m so glad that you decided to\n36 participate. Again, I just want to re-emphasize that this project is to really explore the entire\nNasreen Mohamed 20\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nspectrum of the gender and so we do not want to limit ourselves to this binary 1 of just male-2\nidentified transgender people or female-identified. We want to explore this entire sort of\n3 gender spectrum. So, thank you so much for being a part of this. Is there anything that I didn’t\n4 say – and first of all, I should acknowledge that we are in Ramadan, and I know as a Muslim you\n5 are celebrating as well as fasting, so I want to acknowledge that and wish you peace and\n6 blessings during this time.\n7 NM: Yes, thank you.\n8 AJ: But, is there anything that I didn’t ask you that you wanted to . . . that you feel like is important\n9 to this conversation?\n10 NM: Yeah, I’m trying to think what you didn’t ask me and I think . . . yeah, it has given me a lot to\n11 think about in terms . . . that I don’t really take a lot of time to reflect on my gender identity and\n12 this has been an opportunity to do that. So, I want to thank you for that. But, I also kind of . . .\n13 as I think about Orlando, I’m also thinking about Bangladesh where GLBT journalists and activists\n14 have been targeted and killed.\n15 AJ: Wow, thank you for bringing that up.\n16 NM: And, as we think about Orlando, we need to think about . . . we need to think about what’s\n17 happening globally to GLBT folks and that that’s . . . Bangladesh, the issues in Bangladesh have\n18 been happening for quite some time and there is very little that we have talked about that’s not\n19 taking away the focus and the pain of what happened in Orlando.\n20 AJ: It’s connecting.\n21 NM: It’s connecting – the targeting is connecting. And also, the absence, just the absence of Latino\n22 voices around talking about Orlando. I feel like, and I’ll just say this – and this is from just a\n23 purely social media point of view of what I’ve scanned through Facebook of even queer Muslims\n24 have had an emergence of voice, but still I have not seen queer Latinos – like it’s coming out a\n25 little bit, but it has taken a couple of days, but those stories need to be held at the center as\n26 well.\n27 AJ: Absolutely.\n28 NM: I think it’s really easy for the broader GLBT community to erase the identity of people who\n29 occupied that dance floor.\n30 AJ: Right.\n31 NM: So, I think that’s probably one of the things that I thought that I should mention.\n32 AJ: Yeah, wow.\n33 NM: Well, thank you, Andrea. It was really great.\n34 AJ: Thank you, Nasreen. You sound like the interviewer now.\n35 NM: No, no.\nNasreen Mohamed 21\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nAJ: Well, thank you, Andrea – bye. No, I’m totally teasing you, totally teasing 1 you. But, thank you,\n2 Nasreen. Your thoughts are very deep and very meaningful. I really appreciate your openness\n3 and your honesty and your heartfelt sharing. So, until we meet again.\n4 NM: All right, and we will.\n5 AJ: We will.", "_version_": 1710339102924079104, "type": "Moving Image", "collection": "p16022coll97", "is_compound": false, "parent_id": "158", "thumb_url": "https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1369852/thumbnail/entry_id/0_kcjm88w6", "thumb_cdn_url": "https://dkp5i0hinw9br.cloudfront.net/bbbeb7b74bc885a79c61f895b1391eae19db21fc.png", "children": [ ] }