{ "id": "p16022coll97:184", "object": "https://cdm16022.contentdm.oclc.org/utils/getthumbnail/collection/p16022coll97/id/184", "set_spec": "p16022coll97", "collection_name": "Tretter Transgender Oral History Project", "collection_name_s": "Tretter Transgender Oral History Project", "collection_description": "
The Tretter Transgender Oral History Project (TTOHP) collects, preserves, and makes accessible oral histories of gender transgression, especially as theyintersect with race, age, sexuality, citizenship, class, and ability. The project seeks to document the power and vision of trans movements for justice through the stories of activists working to imagine another world.
\n\nThe first phase of the Tretter Transgender Oral History Project was led by poet and activist Andrea Jenkins—who became the first Black transgender woman to serve in office in the US after she was elected, in 2017, to the Minneapolis City Council. This phase of the project sought to document the life stories and experiences of transgender and gender non-conforming people, with a focus on people living in the upper Midwest as well as those often excluded from the historical record, including trans people of color and trans elders.
\n\nThe second phase of the Tretter Transgender Oral History Project is led by trans studies scholar Myrl Beam. This phase of work seeks to document histories of trans activist movements and politics in the US, and is grounded in the belief that trans movements for justice are about more than rights: they are about survival, and about creating a new, more fabulous, more livable, and more expansive world––one not structured by racialized gender norms. The oral histories collected during this phase document the transformative power of trans movements, and the stories of trans activists who are building them.
\n\nFor more about the project, visit: https://www.lib.umn.edu/tretter/transgender-oral-history-project.
", "title": "Interview with Lee Livingston Perine", "title_s": "Interview with Lee Livingston Perine", "title_t": "Interview with Lee Livingston Perine", "title_search": "Interview with Lee Livingston Perine", "title_sort": "interviewwithleelivingstonperine", "description": "Lee Levingston Perine is a Black genderqueer person from St. Louis, Missouri. They talk about their early life, college, and grad school, as well as having a very supportive family. They talk at length about masculinity and race, and the difference between their community in DC and in Minneapolis. They talk about relationship dynamics, especially in the Black queer community, their work starting a company called Makers Lab, and the impact of Prince.", "date_created": [ "2016-12-22" ], "date_created_ss": [ "2016-12-22" ], "date_created_sort": "2016", "creator": [ "Perine, Lee Livingston" ], "creator_ss": [ "Perine, Lee Livingston" ], "creator_sort": "perineleelivingston", "contributor": [ "Jenkins, Andrea (Interviewer)" ], "contributor_ss": [ "Jenkins, Andrea (Interviewer)" ], "notes": "Forms part of the Tretter Transgender Oral History Project, Phase 1.", "types": [ "Moving Image" ], "format": [ "Oral histories | http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300202595" ], "format_name": [ "Oral histories" ], "dimensions": "0:55:50", "subject": [ "Midwest (United States)", "Family Relationships", "Work", "Friendship and Community", "Black", "Art and Creative Work", "Race", "Privilege", "Tretter Transgender Oral History Project Phase 1" ], "subject_ss": [ "Midwest (United States)", "Family Relationships", "Work", "Friendship and Community", "Black", "Art and Creative Work", "Race", "Privilege", "Tretter Transgender Oral History Project Phase 1" ], "language": [ "English" ], "city": [ "Minneapolis" ], "state": [ "Minnesota" ], "country": [ "United States" ], "continent": [ "North America" ], "geonames": [ "http://sws.geonames.org/5037657/" ], "parent_collection": "Tretter Transgender Oral History Project", "parent_collection_name": "Tretter Transgender Oral History Project", "contributing_organization": "University of Minnesota Libraries, Jean-Nickolaus Tretter Collection in Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Studies.", "contributing_organization_name": "University of Minnesota Libraries, Jean-Nickolaus Tretter Collection in Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Studies.", "contributing_organization_name_s": "University of Minnesota Libraries, Jean-Nickolaus Tretter Collection in Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Studies.", "contact_information": "University of Minnesota Libraries, Jean-Nickolaus Tretter Collection in Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Studies. 111 Elmer L. Andersen Library, 222 - 21st Avenue South, Minneapolis, MN 55455; https://www.lib.umn.edu/tretter", "fiscal_sponsor": "This project is funded through the generous support of The TAWANI Foundation, Headwaters Foundation and many individual donors.", "local_identifier": [ "tretter414_tohp128" ], "dls_identifier": [ "tretter414_tohp128" ], "rights_statement_uri": "http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-EDU/1.0/", "kaltura_audio": "1_1r4xbt0k", "kaltura_video": "1_ph0arbph", "kaltura_combo_playlist": "0_sjts0h1t", "page_count": 0, "record_type": "primary", "first_viewer_type": "kaltura_combo_playlist", "viewer_type": "kaltura_combo_playlist", "attachment": "117.pdf", "attachment_format": "pdf", "document_type": "item", "featured_collection_order": 999, "date_added": "2018-09-24T00:00:00Z", "date_added_sort": "2018-09-24T00:00:00Z", "date_modified": "2020-05-22T00:00:00Z", "transcription": "Lee Levingston Perine 1\nLee Levingston Perine\nNarrator\nAndrea Jenkins\nInterviewer\nThe Transgender Oral History Project\nTretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nDecember 22, 2016\nThe Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story,\nwhile providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source\nmaterial about the transgender community. The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the\nUniversity of Minnesota. The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for\ncurrent and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public.\nThe Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300\nindividuals over the next three years. Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and\nexperiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality. This project will be led by\nAndrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist. Andrea brings years of experience working in\ngovernment, non-profits and LGBT organizations. If you are interested in being involved in this exciting\nproject, please contact Andrea.\nAndrea Jenkins\njenki120@umn.edu\n(612) 625-4379\nLee Levingston Perine 3\n1 Andrea Jenkins -AJ\n2 Lee Levingston Perine -LLP\n3\n4 AJ: So, hello.\n5 LLP: Hello.\n6 AJ: My name is Andrea Jenkins and I am the oral historian for the Transgender Oral History Project\n7 at the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota Libraries. Today is December 22, 2016.\n8 It’s actually a beautiful winter day – the sun is shining and all of that good stuff. I’m here today\n9 with Lee Perine.\n10 LLP: Per-ene.\n11 AJ: Per-ene. Thank you. One of my questions, Lee, always, is to have our narrators state their\n12 name, how it’s supposed to be pronounced, so thank you for correcting me. So, state your\n13 name, spell your name so we make sure we have the spelling correct, state your gender identity\n14 as you describe it today, and your gender assigned at birth, and then the pronouns that you use.\n15 LLP: OK. So, my name is Lee Levingston Perine. Lee, L-e-e, Levingston, L-e-v-i-n-g-s-t-o-n, and Perine\n16 is P-e-r-i-n-e. Pronouns are they/them/their. As of today, which is December 22nd, my identity\n17 is I identify as gender queer, and I was assigned female at birth.\n18 AJ: Wow, thank you, Lee. So, I know you’ve already indicated that you have a little bit of a\n19 challenge with this question, but I’m going to go ahead and ask it anyway. What is the first thing\n20 you remember in life?\n21 LLP: Yeah, I really struggle with that. I’m not sure what the first thing I remember in life is, but it\n22 probably has something to do with my twin sister because we were always together – pretty\n23 much every minute of the day, up until we went to college.\n24 AJ: Oh, wow.\n25 LLP: So, probably something with her.\n26 AJ: So, you have a twin?\n27 LLP: I do, Allison – yeah.\n28 AJ: OK, wow. Identical or . . .?\n29 LLP Fraternal. We don’t even look related.\n30 AJ: Is that right?\n31 LLP: Yeah, but she’s my best friend and my biggest supporter.\n32 AJ: That’s incredible. And the memory doesn’t have to be at like age 18 months or something – just\n33 your first memory. It depends on the person – it could be when you were in 5th grade or\n34 whatever.\nLee Levingston Perine 4\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nLLP: Now that I’ve given it a little bit more thought, it’s probably my first day 1 of kindergarten.\n2 Actually, at that point, I was in one classroom and my sister was actually across the hall and our\n3 brother was in 5th grade at the same school. So, he walked us to our classrooms, introduced us\n4 to our teachers, made sure we got to our seats, and then he went on to his classroom. So, it\n5 was actually probably a moment with both of my siblings that comes to mind.\n6 AJ: OK, well that’s a pretty detailed memory.\n7 LLP: Yeah, I remember that day.\n8 AJ: Where did you go to elementary school, kindergarten?\n9 LLP: So, I was born and raised in St. Louis, Missouri, and I went to an elementary school called\n10 Jackson Park.\n11 AJ: Jackson Park. What was it like there?\n12 LLP: Jackson Park, I think, was probably one of the best elementary schools in the country. Really\n13 outstanding teachers, diverse student body, really active parent-teacher organization. We had\n14 soccer and lots of activities for kids to participate in and so I really liked it there, I was happy.\n15 AJ: Yeah. Did you go there your whole . . .?\n16 LLP: Yeah, so I grew up in the same house.\n17 AJ: Grade school?\n18 LLP: Grade school, yeah. I still have some of the same friends from kindergarten. All of my time was\n19 . . . so the school district was University City, so all of my time was spent in the University City\n20 school system.\n21 AJ: OK. Is that a neighborhood?\n22 LLP: Yeah, University City is a neighborhood in St. Louis and all of our streets are named after\n23 colleges and universities.\n24 AJ: Oh, OK. So it’s not on a campus, it’s not like the University of Missouri or anything like that?\n25 LLP: The neighborhood is actually adjacent to Washington University in St. Louis but I’m not sure that\n26 that is why they named the streets that way. So, yeah, I grew up on Cornell and my best friend\n27 was on Stanford.\n28 AJ: Oh, OK. You guys were at the Ivy League schools.\n29 LLP: Something like that. It was a great place to grow up.\n30 AJ: Nice. What was family life like?\n31 LLP: I had both of my parents until my dad died when I was 15.\n32 AJ: Oh, wow. I’m sorry to hear that but it’s great that you grew up in a two-parent household.\nLee Levingston Perine 5\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nLLP: Yeah, two-parent household. My parents were very involved in the community 1 of St. Louis,\n2 active members of their sorority and fraternity and other civic organizations. I have an older\n3 brother who I’m close to and I have a twin sister, who I’m very close to. So, a very close-knit\n4 family. We’re super tight and supportive.\n5 AJ: Awesome. So, when you were in grade school at Jackson Park, were you ever sort of bullied or\n6 harassed? Were you at that point in time expressing, in any way, your gender identity? Or\n7 maybe a better question is, let me put it this way, when did you first realize that you were not\n8 the gender you were assigned at birth?\n9 LLP: Probably around seven or eight, I think that was the first time I just started to feel different. You\n10 know, tried to pee standing up, just felt different from my peers. I still had pigtails and luckily I\n11 didn’t have to wear dresses a lot so that didn’t challenge my identity, but I also knew I was a\n12 little different. I also fit in, right? I wasn’t bullied – elementary school was actually a very\n13 pleasant experience. In 5th grade, I was student council vice president.\n14 AJ: Woo-hoo, politics.\n15 LLP: Yeah. My twin was student council president - that was the first time that siblings had both held\n16 those offices. So, it was actually pretty storybook.\n17 AJ: You were a popular kid.\n18 LLP: I was a popular kid, yeah definitely.\n19 AJ: So, you weren’t necessarily expressing this outwardly in any way, this whole sort of feeling of\n20 being different.\n21 LLP: No.\n22 AJ: When did you start to express it?\n23 LLP: I would say probably middle school, moving into high school is where I definitely felt like more\n24 of a tomboy. I played field hockey; I was the goalie. I think . . . I didn’t really wear dresses in\n25 high school; the only time I think I did was when I was a debutante. I did that for my mother.\n26 AJ: OK.\n27 LLP: I did wear like a big white dress my senior year of high school but then after that experience . . .\n28 I’m glad I did it, but then I was just like, “This definitely isn’t who I am.” After graduating from\n29 high school I was just like, “I’m pretty much done with dresses in any form.”\n30 AJ: Feminine sort of type.\n31 LLP: Yeah, I didn’t want to wear make-up, I had long straight hair which wasn’t really a fit for me.\n32 But, at the same time it’s just like I wasn’t really ready to push too many envelopes and\n33 boundaries, so I did what I could given where I was.\n34 AJ: Sure. Where did you go to college?\n35 LLP: I went to Duke for undergrad, in North Carolina.\nLee Levingston Perine 6\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\n1 AJ: Is that right?\n2 LLP: Yeah.\n3 AJ: That’s a pretty decent school.\n4 LLP: Yeah, it’s a really good school. It was rough though, it was a little rough the first year.\n5 AJ: What was the challenge? What was going on?\n6 LLP: So, my high school was 90% Black. I got to Duke, which is not 90% Black.\n7 AJ: To say the least.\n8 LLP: To say the least. It was just a lot of very privileged people who I was just not used to being\n9 around, very different ideas of reality, and it was just a really tough place to be and I wanted to\n10 transfer. But I ended up staying and luckily I found people I connected with. I think, also . . . I\n11 mean, it was only 6000 undergrads at that time, but I think that that was even too big for what I\n12 needed in terms of a college experience.\n13 AJ: Wow, yeah. But you made it through.\n14 LLP: I made it – I graduated early. I made it through. I came out when I was 19, so that all happened\n15 while I was at Duke.\n16 AJ: What was that like? You’re in this sort of privileged PWI, I think the phrase is – predominantly\n17 white institution, and you’re coming out as gender queer.\n18 LLP: That was . . . wow, 1998. So in 1998, gender queer, at least, was not a term I knew. I had\n19 actually talked to my sister and a couple of friends about it so at that point I was identifying as\n20 gay. I never really associated with the term lesbian, so I would just tell people that I was gay. It\n21 was when I was 19 that I told my mother, so, for me, that was the moment that felt like coming\n22 out because . . . yeah, that was probably the hardest person I had to tell, was telling her.\n23 AJ: How did that go? What did you . . . do you remember what you said?\n24 LLP: Oh, yeah – I remember. Oh, yeah. I had flown into Little Rock, I had come home for spring\n25 break and she had picked me up because we had to go from Little Rock to Memphis, that’s\n26 where she lives. We were driving and she was like, “Oh, how’s your spring break been?” I was\n27 actually in New York visiting this woman who I was completely crushed out on and it didn’t go so\n28 well. And my mom was like, “How was your spring break?” And I was like, “Ahhh, I think I’m\n29 heartbroken.” My mom said, “Well, what’s his name?” I was like, “Dana.” She was like, “Oh, so\n30 it’s official.” I’m like, “Yeah, it’s official.” So, she had known the entire time. My aunt had told\n31 her . . .\n32 AJ: Oh, so she knew about Dana.\n33 LLP: She didn’t know about Dana, but she already knew I was gay at that point. When I was like 15, I\n34 think, my aunt told her . . . so my name was Elisa when I was born.\n35 AJ: Oh, OK.\nLee Levingston Perine 7\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nLLP: My aunt was like, “Oh, Elisa is gay if you don’t already know, she carries a wallet.” 1 At that point\n2 my mom was like . . .\n3 AJ: With a chain? Like what?\n4 LLP: No, just a wallet.\n5 AJ: A wallet doesn’t mean you’re gay.\n6 LLP: For my aunt it did, but I guess . . . like from looking at pictures and stuff, I’m like, “Oh, OK. It\n7 kind of makes sense.” But I think one of the reasons I was hesitant to tell my mom was because\n8 my father was a closeted gay man and I think all the feelings around that, I really didn’t want to\n9 trigger any of that.\n10 AJ: Sort of . . .\n11 LLP: So, I think that’s why I was a little reluctant to tell her, and then eventually I did. She had a\n12 tough time with it, it was not easy. We’ve had a lot of conversations about it, she’s processed it\n13 with friends and family, so she is doing a lot better with it. She walked me down the aisle at my\n14 wedding so . . . you know, she’s pretty awesome.\n15 AJ: So, you’re married?\n16 LLP: I was married. I was married for four years – yeah.\n17 AJ: To . . .?\n18 LLP: To a woman.\n19 AJ: To a woman, wow.\n20 LLP: Yeah.\n21 AJ: I want to get back to that a little bit later. I’m just kind of interested in how your self-identify\n22 has sort of morphed over time. So, you came out initially at 19 as gay, right?\n23 LLP: Yeah.\n24 AJ: And then . . .\n25 LLP: I probably identified as gay until I was . . . so, I’m 38 now and I probably identified as gay until I\n26 was 33 or 34. I distinctly remember I was hanging out with one of my really good friends, I call\n27 him, “my son” although he’s 35 now. He’s trans identified and we were in a parking lot of this\n28 organic grocery store and I was like, “I’m tired of being gay, I’m queer.” And he was like, “OK,\n29 that works – whatever.” So, it was at that point that I started to re-think my identity and when I\n30 really wanted to express myself differently and being in DC and being around so many different\n31 types of people, I really started to explore the idea of having my top surgery and then it was like\n32 in 2015 that I changed my name – well, not legally but starting going by Lee and started doing\n33 things that were going to make me more comfortable as I moved through the world.\n34 AJ: So, you’ve had top surgery?\nLee Levingston Perine 8\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nLLP: Yeah, December of 2015 – 1 so like a year ago.\n2 AJ: Are there other sort of medical interventions that you have undergone or have planned?\n3 LLP: No, I haven’t yet. I’m still figuring that out. I think that’s one of the . . . being up here in\n4 Minnesota helps where I have kind of the freedom and the space to think about what’s next or\n5 what’s not next and figuring out what that timeline is.\n6 AJ: You mentioned that you lived in DC and then you sort of transitioned to Minneapolis. You\n7 identify as gender queer but people in the world . . . I think people see you as a young Black\n8 man.\n9 LLP: Yes – yes, they do. Which I was not prepared for. In some ways, I’ve had to process a lot of that\n10 because people treat you very differently when you are perceived as a young Black man. I’m a\n11 pretty happy-go-lucky, jovial person and I’ll get on an elevator and nobody wants to talk to me.\n12 AJ: Right.\n13 LLP: Or people are threatened – like when you get followed in stores. I had this woman . . . I was\n14 buying stuff for a work project and she followed me out to my car to ask me about what I had\n15 purchased and wouldn’t leave until I showed the receipt.\n16 AJ: Is that right?\n17 LLP: I never had those experiences until I cut my hair and had top surgery. Also, I know my energy\n18 has shifted and the clothes I chose to wear – so a lot of things have changed about . . .\n19 AJ: Was that in Minneapolis or was that in DC?\n20 LLP: This is all in DC, all in DC. I know that when I look at myself from a few years ago and look at\n21 myself now, there’s been a huge shift and the way I get treated, there’s also been a huge shift.\n22 AJ: How? How so? Are you treated better? Are you treated worse?\n23 LLP: Worse, the world is not as pleasant.\n24 AJ: To Black men.\n25 LLP: To Black men. I mean, there was probably stuff I was experiencing as a Black woman but as a\n26 Black man, I do feel a bit more threatened and I’m more cautious of how I move about and how\n27 I take up space and realizing that people just have these ridiculous ideas and I don’t know if I’m\n28 in a position to change them so I just make sure that I’m as safe as I can be.\n29 AJ: Wow. Do you ever think about . . . you know, the idea has existed or the action has existed\n30 since the beginning of human history, but we have now labeled the actions toxic masculinity.\n31 Do you think about that? How do you deal with that as now being sort of a masculine-of-center\n32 person?\n33 LLP: I think about it all the time. So, when I was in DC, I actually had a group of friends and we called\n34 ourselves The Brothers. It’s a group of masculine-of-center folks but I think we were really\n35 committed to re-defining masculinity and there are a lot of positive things about being\nLee Levingston Perine 9\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nmasculine-of-center but I don’t need to be misogynist, I don’t need to necessarily 1 prescribe to\n2 certain gender roles. There are certain ways that I have to be conscious of how I take up space.\n3 In the work that I do, I actually make sure I’m centering Black women and so I think that I have\n4 the space and opportunity to re-define masculinity and not just do it the way it’s been done\n5 before. I don’t necessarily like the way it’s been done before, but recognizing that I can . . . that\n6 there can be a shift.\n7 AJ: Wow. Yeah, no that’s a huge thing. As we talk about the shift, sort of this physical shift and\n8 how you’re perceived in society, and being identified as a Black male certainly has its challenges,\n9 as you’ve named some, there is also some male privilege that comes too, right?\n10 LLP: Yeah, there’s definitely male privilege. I’m not sure how much I’ve experienced it because I\n11 think . . . at least because I’m not on testosterone yet, or that’s still something I’m deciding, but I\n12 think what happens is when people look at me, they perceive me as a Black man. So, if they see\n13 me in the elevator, they may feel threatened and they get off the elevator and that’s our\n14 exchange. But when people talk to me or are in a social setting with me, then they realize that I\n15 was probably assigned female at birth and so then the dynamic shifts again. So, I’m not\n16 continuously read as a Black man. So, it’s kind of . . . yeah.\n17 AJ: Wow, do you disclose that you were assigned female at birth?\n18 LLP: It depends on the setting. If I’m in Uber and they’re like, “Hey, what’s up dude?” I’m like,\n19 “Hey,” and then I just go with it. We’re going to be in the car together for 10-20 minutes so\n20 there’s no . . .\n21 AJ: Yeah, there’s no reason to disclose that to the lady at the cupcake shop.\n22 LLP: Yeah, so then I’ll be like . . . I’ll just go with it. But, if I’m in a social setting – like if I’m at a party\n23 or meeting people, then I’ll typically tell them. I don’t necessarily tell them I was assigned\n24 female at birth, but then they’ll be like . . . I think they pick up on the fact and they’ll be like,\n25 “Oh, sir/ma’am . . .” And I’m like, “I’m both,” and then they just kind of let it go at that point.\n26 AJ: How does that feel?\n27 LLP: It used to feel better, I think now it’s starting to feel less authentic in terms of saying that I’m\n28 both because I’m not necessarily sure I’m both anymore – trying to figure out what all that\n29 means.\n30 AJ: And I was thinking more . . . you’re coming from an internal space, I was thinking externally.\n31 How does it feel that people will sort of . . . I don’t know, just kind of blow it off? Sir? Ma’am?\n32 Whatever?\n33 LLP: I get that probably a few times a week – like sort of, “Ma’am, ma’am, sir, I’m sorry, I’m sorry.” I\n34 think . . . I used to get really bothered by it and would try to correct people and then I would just\n35 go with it. And now it’s just like the only people I really make a conscious effort to correct are\n36 my family and friends, because those people I deal with on a regular basis. But if these are . . .\n37 you know . . .\n38 AJ: Somebody in a restaurant or . . .\nLee Levingston Perine 10\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nLLP: Somebody in a restaurant, like super transactional, then I’m just going to let it 1 go because I just\n2 don’t have that much energy to expend and so I’ve just got to keep it pushing, so that’s what I\n3 try to do.\n4 AJ: Sure. Yeah, I’m wondering what’s the difference in being perceived being a Black male in DC\n5 versus in Minneapolis? Have you had a chance to sort of analyze or process that at all?\n6 LLP: I haven’t analyzed it yet, but just Minneapolis, in general, coming to a city that is predominantly\n7 white is a shock to the system. It’s definitely not DC. In DC, all of my friends were Black and so\n8 now coming to Minneapolis and as I’m trying to build community with Black people and other\n9 POCs, but right now my base is a lot of white folks and white gay men. It’s just . . . it’s just a lot\n10 different experience than anything I’ve ever had.\n11 AJ: I’m sorry . . . I’m sorry for laughing, I’m sorry that you’re experiencing that too.\n12 LLP: Yeah, I know. Because sometimes laughter is the only way to make it through because it’s like\n13 you need to be around people, you don’t want to isolate. At that same time, you don’t have a\n14 shared experience because being gay is not always enough. So, yeah, working through that. And\n15 then also I don’t know how much time they’ve actually spent around Black people or other\n16 people of color, like the people I know in Minneapolis . . . it’s a very different life than what I had\n17 in DC.\n18 AJ: What are some of the challenges of the LGB community versus the trans gender non-conforming\n19 community, in your . . .?\n20 LLP: What are some of the challenges?\n21 AJ: Yeah.\n22 LLP: What I’ve noticed hanging out with a lot of LGB folks is . . . I think this assumed understanding or\n23 like, “I don’t need to be educated.” Because I identify as a lesbian, gay or bisexual, then I must\n24 understand, automatically, the trans experience or gender non-conforming experience and I\n25 don’t have to take the time to be educated to learn about the importance of pronouns and\n26 understand that people’s identities are on a spectrum. I think people have this false sense of\n27 solidarity and, in fact, it does a huge disservice, I think, to trans folks and gender non-28\nconforming folks.\n29 AJ: Yeah, that also translates to race. I’m gay so I’m . . .\n30 LLP: There’s no way I can be racist.\n31 AJ: . . . and Black, I can’t be a racist because I’m gay.\n32 LLP: Yeah.\n33 AJ: What’s your thoughts on that?\n34 LLP: I’ve met plenty of racist gay white men.\n35 AJ: No shit.\nLee Levingston Perine 11\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nLLP: Yeah, it’s been quite an experience which is why I’ve chosen to primarily hang 1 out with Black\n2 queers and other POCs because those are the spaces where I feel safe and comfortable and can\n3 express who I truly am.\n4 AJ: What’s your sexual orientation?\n5 LLP: Right now, I think I identify as queer. I don’t know. I think since getting divorced, since having\n6 top surgery, and giving myself the freedom to explore the world, I think I’m just open to energy\n7 at this point in my life and don’t really label it.\n8 AJ: How long have you been divorced?\n9 LLP: Two years in February.\n10 AJ: Was your gender identity in any way related to your separation or break-up?\n11 LLP: No, I think my partner would . . . and we actually talked about me having top surgery. I think\n12 she would have been supportive of that, I just felt that I needed space and to be on my own to\n13 really figure out who I am because it is . . . I don’t know if it’s necessarily a selfish process, but\n14 you really have to go inward and sometimes you don’t have the energy or ability to focus on a\n15 relationship. Now that I’m on my own, I just really make decisions that are best for me and I\n16 think will ultimately make me a better partner because . . . yeah, I’m figuring out who I am and\n17 what I want and not in the context of someone else and worrying about how I’m impacting their\n18 life, because that’s what a partnership is.\n19 AJ: So, for a while you were very much into female body or female-identified humans.\n20 LLP: Yes, yes – and I still am. But I think that now that I’m more masculine and more male identified,\n21 but not necessarily identifying as male, if you’re masculine-of-center and you’re attracted to\n22 other masculine-of-center people, there’s also a bit of a taboo and stigma around that.\n23 AJ: Really?\n24 LLP: Oh yeah.\n25 AJ: Like what? I’m serious.\n26 LLP: If you see two people in DC, they call them doms and stuff and all that kind of stuff, people will\n27 be like, “That’s so gay,” and I’m like, “Well, we’re all gay – we’re all queers, I don’t understand\n28 how this works.” So, it’s OK for butch femme dynamics, femme femme dynamics but the\n29 minute it’s like butch butch, at least for Black folks is what I’ve experienced, people lose their\n30 minds. And so, I think there is . . . and even some of my friends who were masculine-of-center,\n31 for the most part we’re a very affectionate group of people – but to a point where it’s like,\n32 “Well, you know, I don’t want people to think . . .” And I’m just like, “OK.”\n33 AJ: So do they . . . they stop short of saying no homo, right?\n34 LLP: Yeah, but that’s what people are thinking because they’re so worried about what people think. I\n35 think it’s fine if two masculine-of-center people want to date each other or share space\n36 together, whatever that is but it’s not as accepted.\nLee Levingston Perine 12\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nAJ: I have a trans couple, two trans friends who are married – they’re both masculine 1 identified and\n2 . . .\n3 LLP: I’ve seen when it’s trans men . . . I’ve seen less of a pushback but when I . . . women who may\n4 identify as lesbian and they’re masculine-of-center, so two butch lesbians together who are\n5 Black, it’s like . . .\n6 AJ: No, I totally get it and I believe it and I’ve also experienced it as a bisexual transgender Black\n7 woman myself, whose partner is female-identified cis gender. So, yeah, that struggle is real.\n8 LLP: I also had to unpack a lot of my own crap around it too. There was a time . . . I’m trans\n9 identified, but there was a time I was probably a very transphobic person because thinking you\n10 could hate it away, but you can’t hate yourself away. And then you come to terms with who\n11 you are and then as you get older you’re just like, I don’t know how much time I have on this\n12 planet so I just need to do what’s me and it’s just going to have to work for people and if it\n13 doesn’t, I don’t really care. And so, it’s proven to be a lot easier.\n14 AJ: So you’ve worked through some transphobia?\n15 LLP: Yeah, oh yeah.\n16 AJ: I think if all of us were honest we would probably say we’ve had to . . . and I don’t know, it’s a\n17 continuous struggle, I think. Is it ever really over?\n18 LLP: Right. I think sometimes I just don’t want to . . . it’s just exhausting, right? Because . . . luckily\n19 we’re in Minneapolis, which is, in some ways, more progressive than obviously other places in\n20 the country, but that doesn’t mean everyone gets it, right? But you don’t want to be everyone’s\n21 educator.\n22 AJ: Right.\n23 LLP: Sometimes you just want to go to dinner or sometimes you just want to go to the park. Or\n24 people will say to me, I just don’t understand. I’m like, “Google it, there are plenty of\n25 resources.” When I was in college I didn’t want to your insight into Black America, because this\n26 is just my perspective, right? I don’t want to be your trans representative and so, yeah.\n27 AJ: Or they can come to the Transgender Oral History Project and . . .\n28 LLP: There are so many resources, so many more resources. When I came out 20 years ago, of course\n29 I’ve appreciated all of the journey, but maybe it would have been different if I had other\n30 resources and knew that there were other identities that reflected me.\n31 AJ: Yeah, and that you could be successful and respected in the world by being yourself.\n32 LLP: Yeah.\n33 AJ: What have been some of the challenges you’ve faced since you’ve come out as a masculine-of-34\ncenter, gender-queer person?\n35 LLP: Challenges? I think I have a lot of challenges moving through the world in terms of . . . like if I’m\n36 out at a restaurant, if I’m on an elevator – those things, but I actually didn’t have any issues at\nLee Levingston Perine 13\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nmy job when I came out and had my surgery. They were extremely 1 supportive. My side\n2 business is working with queer people, so I’m in spaces that are for my identity. I’m in DC,\n3 which is one of the queerest places in this country, and now I’m in Minneapolis . . .\n4 AJ: Really?\n5 LLP: Oh, yeah – DC is super queer, or very queer, or at least I found all the places to go. But even like\n6 . . . I never really felt threatened going to restaurants or anything . . . like coffee shops. I always\n7 felt respected and so I actually haven’t had the most . . . there have been times where I’ve felt\n8 unease but for the most part I would say that life has been OK. It’s more of my process than\n9 anything else.\n10 AJ: Sure, internal.\n11 LLP: Internal stuff, yeah.\n12 AJ: Yeah, what have been some of the positive aspects?\n13 LLP: Positive? I think since . . . like, owning and accepting my authentic self, I think I’m a lot lighter.\n14 I’m a lot happier, it’s easier for me to interact with people, and I think it just . . . when I have joy\n15 then it also brings . . . I feel like joy is infectious. So, if you’re who you are then people around\n16 you will be like, “Oh, OK – they’re happy because they’re doing . . .” I think it can actually inspire\n17 people to do the things they want to do and express themselves the way they want to. So,\n18 yeah.\n19 AJ: So, opening up space for other people.\n20 LLP: Yeah.\n21 AJ: Yeah. What were some of the pivotal moments that really, I guess, led to your gender\n22 awakening? I know you mentioned you were sitting in a parking lot at an organic food store and\n23 you kind of had this epiphany. Were there other sort of seminal or pivotal moments?\n24 LLP: Yeah, I would say on my 34th birthday I had this really big birthday party and I had done this\n25 crowd funding campaign for my business, so in a lot of ways it seemed like I was extremely\n26 happy and OK with the world, but on the inside I was really torn up and actually extremely\n27 depressed. It was about that time that . . . and after a suicide attempt, I actually had to have a\n28 conversation with myself and with my family as to how did I get to this point and I think a lot of\n29 it was because I was afraid to express who I was and had just gotten so used to performing that\n30 you get tired of performing at some point. So, having a real conversation with them about who I\n31 was and how I needed to present in the world, and getting their support. So, from then on they\n32 were just like, “However you need to live is how we’re going to support you.” And so, yeah. So,\n33 I thank my family for that because a lot of people don’t have that support.\n34 AJ: No, not at all. And we know that statistics show that 81% of transgender people who have\n35 family support do better in terms of employment, housing – all of those things. When you have\n36 family support you can just be more productive, I think.\n37 LLP: Yeah.\nLee Levingston Perine 14\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nAJ: And not necessarily caught up in those negative cycles that tend to happen 1 for many trans\n2 people, particularly transgender people of color. We talked a little bit about love and\n3 relationships – you were married for four years.\n4 LLP: I was, yeah.\n5 AJ: Are you in a relationship now?\n6 LLP: No, I’m very single – very, very single.\n7 AJ: And you would be open to dating trans men, cis gender women, cis men. Have you ever . . .?\n8 LLP: Mmm . . . I think I’m open to everyone except cis men right now. Just . . . no, no. No. But if\n9 you’d have asked me a few years ago, I only dated . . . I didn’t date trans women, I didn’t date\n10 trans men, my idea of who I would date was very limited, and that’s changed. So, if you ask me\n11 in a year it could be very different. I don’t know.\n12 AJ: I have to just keep it open because I mean, there are a lot of trans men who are into cis gender\n13 men.\n14 LLP: My son is one of those people, yeah.\n15 AJ: Scruffy . . . Isn’t there an app called Scruffy or something?\n16 LLP: See I don’t even know about it, I’ll have to look it up. But I don’t know.\n17 AJ: Sort of for trans men who are interested in cis men and vice versa. I’ve never been on it.\n18 LLP: I may take a look.\n19 AJ: OK, yeah. It doesn’t quite fit my criteria. Have you had any challenges or discrimination or\n20 harassment dealing with the criminal justice system or the academic institutions or medical\n21 institutions or some of these big institutions that sort of dominant our culture and society?\n22 LLP: You know, I’m really fortunate I haven’t had . . .\n23 AJ: That’s awesome.\n24 LLP: But I also think that’s probably because when I went through . . .\n25 AJ: I’m doing golf claps because that’s incredible.\n26 LLP: That’s also because when I went to college and grad school, at that point I identified as a\n27 woman. And so, I haven’t had . . . I didn’t go through the educational system as a gender-queer\n28 person so I don’t know . . . if I decide to go back and get a Ph.D., I don’t know what that would\n29 be like. Even when it comes to medical professionals, I’ve actually had very pleasant\n30 experiences. There are lots of doctors in DC that are used to working with trans folks and are\n31 very competent.\n32 AJ: No problems there.\nLee Levingston Perine 15\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nLLP: No. I think sometimes I’ll look at forms and I’m like, “Oh, they probably should 1 have edited this\n2 form,” that kind of thing. But besides that when I meet with the actual doctor or the nurse, it’s\n3 been pretty positive.\n4 AJ: Wow, that’s incredible.\n5 LLP: Yeah.\n6 AJ: Where did you go to graduate school? You mentioned graduate school.\n7 LLP: I went to the University of Texas at Austin. I spent two years down there.\n8 AJ: UTA?\n9 LLP: Or just University of Texas, because it’s the main campus. So, yeah. I’m a Longhorn as well as a\n10 Blue Devil.\n11 AJ: Oh, my goodness - you poor thing.\n12 LLP: Yeah, I went to very sports-oriented schools. Yeah.\n13 AJ: Were you an athlete or a fan? What was the deal?\n14 LLP: I was an athlete in high school, I played field hockey and soccer and all that kind of stuff.\n15 AJ: OK.\n16 LLP: Full disclosure, I applied to Duke because of the basketball team, because they’d won national\n17 championships in 1991, 1992. So, yeah – that’s what drew me to the school and I went there. It\n18 was also a really good school and I did get a great education.\n19 AJ: You could have went to the University of North Carolina – the Tarheels.\n20 LLP: I could have, but my mom also had her . . .\n21 AJ: If it was about basketball.\n22 LLP: That’s true, and I did visit the campus of UNC, but my mom also had a good friend who worked\n23 at Duke and so it was just like, “OK, if you’re going to go away, then at least I know there’s\n24 somebody who can look out for you.” So, all those things combined.\n25 AJ: So, it was a little more than just the basketball program?\n26 LLP: I would say that it was a strong part of it.\n27 AJ: We won’t tell MJ about your decision.\n28 LLP: Yeah, and then Texas was . . . it was actually a family decision. My brother got re-located for\n29 work to San Antonio and he has two kids who I’m very close to and I was like, “I want to be\n30 around my niece and nephew.” And so, I got into grad school at Austin and I got a fellowship so\n31 I was like, “Well, if they’re willing to pay for it, of course I’m going to go.”\n32 AJ: Yeah, exactly.\nLee Levingston Perine 16\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nLLP: So, 1 I moved to Austin.\n2 AJ: Wow, nice. At least you were in some of the more progressive cities in those respective states.\n3 LLP: Yeah, I moved a lot but I always moved to progressive places.\n4 AJ: Austin, Raleigh . . . or Durham. Raleigh-Durham, they’re like Minneapolis and St. Paul.\n5 LLP: Yeah, DC, Seattle – every place I’ve lived. Portland, have all been . . . Philadelphia. Those are\n6 pretty progressive places.\n7 AJ: So you’re pretty conscious around putting yourself in . . .\n8 LLP: I will only live in places where I . . . like you cannot guarantee your safety anywhere.\n9 AJ: Right.\n10 LLP: But, yeah, bigger metropolitan areas that have strong queer communities, then that’s where\n11 you’re going to find me.\n12 AJ: Yeah, that makes sense. What do you think the agenda should be for the trans community\n13 going forward? And, I’m going to put it in this context – going forward in the context of this new\n14 world order that we are living in?\n15 LLP: So, can you just repeat that one more time? What should the agenda be? Or what should the . .\n16 .?\n17 AJ: Yeah, what do you think? Is there an agenda? Should there be an agenda and, if so, what?\n18 LLP: I definitely think there should be an agenda, I’m not sure what it should be. But I do know a big\n19 part of it should be make sure folks have access to basic human rights – like housing, food,\n20 opportunities to work; being able to change documentation without a lot of money and a lot of\n21 fuss; just the things that folks need to honestly just survive. I know we’ve made a lot of strides\n22 but it’s also easier if you have resources – so how do we make it possible for everyone to be\n23 able to do that. Those are the things that come to the top of my mind, I’m sure there’s a lot\n24 more, but that’s what I think of first. I also recognize that I’m in a very privileged position when\n25 it comes to being a gender-queer person. I know there’s a lot of folks, especially like trans folks\n26 of color who just have a lot more obstacles to face than I’ve had in my process.\n27 AJ: How so? You’ve sort of . . . gender-queer is sort of an ambiguous identity to a lot of people. So\n28 you think you just kind of slide under the radar or . . .?\n29 LLP: Even like living in a place like DC, not that every trans person wants to pursue medical\n30 procedures but DC passed legislation that insurance companies had to cover that. When I had\n31 my top surgery, I didn’t pay for anything. But if you live in Iowa, you don’t have that\n32 opportunity and for me, that was life affirming surgery and has made me feel a whole lot better\n33 about myself. You shouldn’t have to just live in big cities to have that opportunity to live your\n34 authentic self, so how do we make sure that everyone has that? My sister is a lawyer, so if I\n35 ever had any problems, she would be at the door yelling at people and sending papers and filing\n36 lawsuits, so there are a lot of things – a lot of resources and protections that I have from family\nLee Levingston Perine 17\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nand friends and things like that, that a lot of people don’t have. I 1 often think about, as we sit\n2 here in Minneapolis, what do people in rural communities do when they need support because\n3 I’ve had a ton of support. It’s great that you can find stuff online but sometimes you need\n4 people, more than just online community.\n5 AJ: You need some physical . . . yeah. Speaking of that, was there ever a . . . is there any one person\n6 that impacted your decision to live your life more authentically? And, if so, who is that person?\n7 And then just to add a third part to that question, to make it more difficult for you to answer,\n8 who are some of your heroes and she-roes in the transgender, queer community?\n9 LLP: So, I think my dad, who I mentioned earlier, he died when I was 15. He was a closeted gay man.\n10 I think that . . . he was an amazing father, right? Knowing more about him and what he had to\n11 experience – being a gay man in the Midwest in the 1970s and 1980s and early 1990s, in a lot of\n12 ways was just very . . . it could have been a very hellish experience and it’s not like you were\n13 supported or respected or affirmed. So, having to live this secret life – and so I think that’s one\n14 of the reasons I came out at 19 is because I knew that we’d made enough progress that I could\n15 come out and it would be safer. There was a way that I wanted to live life and I think me living\n16 my life authentically is a testament to him because that’s something that he wasn’t able to do. I\n17 think that one of the reasons . . . there’s a lot of reasons why I admire my father, but when I was\n18 like 13-years-old, I was at a Best Buy, we were at a Best Buy in St. Louis, and his friend Sharee\n19 came up and he was like, “I want you to meet my friend Sharee.” I met Sharee and then we\n20 went home and he was like, “Go get my wedding album.” I was like, “OK.” And we go through\n21 his wedding album and he’s like, “Sharee used to be Eddie.” I was like, “What? What are you\n22 talking about?’ I was 13-years-old, I didn’t know what he was talking about. So, I think my dad\n23 always knew who I was and so he wanted to make sure I knew that it was OK. And so, he made\n24 it a point to make sure I knew I had just met a trans person when I was 13-years-old.\n25 AJ: That is fascinating, because many parents of a 13-year-old, would never even introduce their\n26 child to someone who was trans and probably would grab their kids hand and run in the other\n27 direction.\n28 LLP: Oh, no, he made it a point that we met Sharee and then I remember at my father’s funeral,\n29 there was Sharee at my dad’s funeral because she knew that she could be there because we\n30 weren’t . . . it wasn’t going to be like, “You can’t be here.”\n31 AJ: Right.\n32 LLP: She had just as much right to be there as everybody else – at the church.\n33 AJ: Wow, that’s a great story.\n34 LLP: So, I think that’s why I just . . . I haven’t dealt with a lot of stuff, but I’ve dealt with enough to be\n35 like . . . not every day being queer is an easy day, but I remember one day with him and we were\n36 coming from dinner and somebody walked by him and was like, “You fucking faggot.”\n37 AJ: Oh, no.\nLee Levingston Perine 18\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nLLP: Things like that. So, he put up with a lot of shit and so I don’t have to put up 1 with as much so it’s\n2 important that I be who I’m supposed to be because he didn’t always have a chance to be who\n3 he was.\n4 AJ: Wow.\n5 LLP: Oh, and heroes and she-roes? There’s people I love – of course, I love like Janet Mock and\n6 Laverne Cox and Tiq Milan. But then I also just love everyday folks going through what they go\n7 through. I think everybody is a hero – getting up every day.\n8 AJ: As a trans or gender non-conforming person, it is a revolutionary act.\n9 LLP: It is, it definitely is.\n10 AJ: Wow, well those are some of my heroes and she-roes too. I know them all and they’re pretty\n11 amazing people. I think there was a third part to that.\n12 LLP: What was the third part? Oh wait – who do I admire?\n13 AJ: Who was a pivotal person?\n14 LLP: Yeah, so my dad.\n15 AJ: Heroes and she-roes?\n16 LLP: Heroes and she-roes, what was the third part?\n17 AJ: I don’t know . . . maybe that was it.\n18 LLP: Oh, OK.\n19 AJ: Have you ever worked or volunteered for any trans or gender non-conforming, LGBT\n20 organizations?\n21 LLP: I have volunteered before, I don’t actually . . . I like to lead organizations. I don’t always do the\n22 best just kind of fitting in, so in 2014, I started this company called Makers Lab and we create\n23 space for queer people, especially queer people of color. So, that’s pretty much been my\n24 passion project, volunteer effort, for queer folks. We’ve done film screenings, body-positive\n25 workout classes, dance parties. We did an Audre Lorde birthday celebration; we co-produce a\n26 music festival. So, to me, creating space for queer people through Makers Lab has kind of been\n27 my volunteer effort.\n28 AJ: And so that brings you in contact with a lot of queer and trans-identified people?\n29 LLP: Oh, yeah.\n30 AJ: Was that . . . you call it volunteer, was it a money earning?\n31 LLP: We did a crowd funding campaign which funded the first year of operations, but pretty much\n32 the dance parties fund the community-based work, so at the end of the day it all pretty much\n33 ends up breaking even – like none of us get a salary or any kind of stipend. We make sure the\n34 artists we work with get paid . . .\nLee Levingston Perine 19\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\n1 AJ: Oh, wonderful.\n2 LLP: Yeah, everyone gets paid that we work with. I have a commitment to pay artists, I don’t do like,\n3 “Oh, let me do this favor exchange.” That’s not my philosophy, but as an organizer of these\n4 events it’s just more about wanting . . . if I don’t see a space, then I’m going to create it as\n5 opposed to complaining about it or that it doesn’t exist.\n6 AJ: Are you an artist yourself?\n7 LLP: I have started to call myself an artist. One of my friends told me that I’m a people artist and so I\n8 bring folks together so I create experiences. So, yeah, I’m an artist.\n9 AJ: OK. Create experiences – that’s an artform.\n10 LLP: Yeah, because I think I do it pretty well. Some people don’t, I’ve been to some pretty crappy\n11 events and so-called experiences. So, yeah.\n12 AJ: Wow. What’s your relationship like with your family today, since you’ve come out?\n13 LLP: My family is awesome. Since I’ve come out again as trans. So, the first time I came out, I\n14 remember when my mom was struggling and my siblings said to my mom, “Well, if you disown,\n15 at that point Elisa, you disown us.” So, we were a package deal.\n16 AJ: Wow.\n17 LLP: And it was kind of the same thing around me being trans. I know she struggles with it but she’s\n18 actively trying to work through her feelings about it. I told my brother I was considering taking\n19 testosterone and he’s like, “You won’t be as cute as me, but I support it.” I said to my twin,\n20 “How would you feel if you had a twin brother?” She was like, “I don’t care, I just want you to be\n21 you.” My mom is . . . she’s also a huge supporter of mine and a big fan, so I couldn’t ask for a\n22 better family. I’m just really thankful that I have their love and support and that when it comes\n23 to their children, their children call me Uncle Lee because . . .\n24 AJ: Oh, wow – nice.\n25 LLP: So, yeah – just that level of understanding and wanting to . . . and sometimes they don’t\n26 understand everything that is happening with me, but that’s not important to them – they just\n27 know their job is to love and my job is to love them and we’ve got to get through this thing\n28 called life as a unit and that’s what we do.\n29 AJ: Wow, get through this thing called life. That’s a line from a song from a Prince song.\n30 LLP: Another reason I’m in Minneapolis – no.\n31 AJ: Are you a fan?\n32 LLP: Huge – huge fan. I saw him three times, because my mom, growing up, was a huge Prince fan\n33 and we had Prince posters in the house and all these other kinds of things.\n34 AJ Wow. Where were you the day Prince died?\nLee Levingston Perine 20\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nLLP: I was at work and my phone started ringing, it was friends checking on me 1 because they knew I\n2 would be upset, and then I immediately had to call my mother to make sure she was OK.\n3 AJ: Oh, wow – so it had a big impact on you guys? He had a big impact.\n4 LLP: I was able, before I left my job – I had planned this outdoor moving series, so I was able to get\n5 additional funding, so we did a special screening of Purple Rain on his birthday and I brought in\n6 DJs to play all Prince before the movie and we got these purple glow sticks so people would\n7 have them – so it was this sea of purple and you could see it from the Metro. Yeah, I know – it\n8 was a huge loss.\n9 AJ: I was a huge Prince fan too. What do you think in terms of Prince’s impact on gender fluidity?\n10 LLP: So, we actually posted this article on our Makers Lab Facebook page about that because, to me,\n11 Prince . . . well, I’ll actually take it back to Sylvester. I love Sylvester.\n12 AJ: Yeah, you want to make a Sylvester national holiday or . . .?\n13 LLP: Well, I try to convince people that Sylvester is the greatest artist of all time just because . . .\n14 AJ: “You make me feel . . .”\n15 LLP: All the envelopes and boundaries he was pushing in the 1970s made it possible for artists, like\n16 Prince, and for Prince to be a lot more mainstream than Sylvester ever was, but to embrace\n17 femininity and still be loved by so many different types of people. I don’t know if people\n18 actively . . . I’m sure they maybe questioned some things about him but he was still able to have\n19 this mass appeal.\n20 AJ: Prince?\n21 LLP: Yeah, Prince – not Sylvester.\n22 AJ: Oh, yeah – yeah.\n23 LLP: Sylvester – my heart. But yeah, I think Sylvester paved the way for Prince.\n24 AJ: Yeah, I would have to say Prince’s appeal was beyond mass appeal.\n25 LLP: Yeah.\n26 AJ: It was like national superstardom, he was there – he was up there.\n27 LLP: His death made 2016 one of the crappiest years ever, I think. His death alone is what made 2016\n28 so crappy.\n29 AJ: Right, I agree – not even counting the Donald Trump factor.\n30 LLP: Right, yeah – that little hiccup.\n31 AJ: Yeah, wow. I’m really glad to hear that you’re still in relationship with your family and all of\n32 that. Are you going to be able to spend some time over the holidays with family and all?\nLee Levingston Perine 21\nThe Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies\nUniversity of Minnesota\nLLP: My family is actually . . . we don’t do a lot around Christmas, we’re a big Thanksgiving 1 family.\n2 We were all together and so we all kind of go off and do our different things during Christmas.\n3 We’ll probably come together in the spring or summer or something like that. Yeah.\n4 AJ: Awesome. Well, you know, I am deeply appreciative of you being willing to be a part of this\n5 conversation. I guess maybe one last question, what do you see as the future of the trans\n6 community or where will the trans community be in 50 years from now?\n7 LLP: Fifty years? I don’t know. I mean, I’m assuming we’re going to be in a better place than where\n8 we are now and that folks will get to be themselves, not just in big cities but across the country,\n9 and that there will be legislation and policy that will make it easier for trans folks to be their\n10 authentic selves and to have access to resources and medically competent doctors and just . . .\n11 yeah, where it’s kind of like . . . it’s just kind of a . . . it’s not a novelty in our culture that folks are\n12 trans. I think it’s exciting that the cover of National Geographic is trans folks this month, or\n13 maybe it’s this month.\n14 AJ: Where? No, speak about that.\n15 LLP: I think that’s very exciting and to be able to tell my friends and everybody to go pick up a copy.\n16 But when you get to the point where . . . I don’t want to say words like normalized but the idea\n17 of gender identities, that’s just . . .\n18 AJ: It’s non-sensational.\n19 LLP: Yeah, this is who folks are and people kind of don’t bat an eye. And then people, at an early age\n20 – or even whenever it is, you feel like you have the space and the freedom to explore that. So,\n21 yeah.\n22 AJ: So, Lee, I’ve asked a lot of questions. Is there anything that you would like to share that maybe I\n23 didn’t quite pull out or dig out.\n24 LLP: No, I think I told you a whole lot. No, I think that’s it.\n25 AJ: Yeah. Well, all right. Thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure to sit down and chat with you\n26 and document some of the key elements of your life. Until we meet again, my friend.\n27 LLP: Awesome, thank you.\n28 AJ: Peace.", "_version_": 1710339103087656960, "type": "Moving Image", "collection": "p16022coll97", "is_compound": false, "parent_id": "184", "thumb_url": "https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1369852/thumbnail/entry_id/0_sjts0h1t", "thumb_cdn_url": "https://dkp5i0hinw9br.cloudfront.net/224197c44e455c6413d79522921890a4f9f9b6c3.png", "children": [ ] }